Beyond the Box
Beyond the Box with Monica Kelsey is a powerful podcast dedicated to raising awareness, educating the public, and advocating for change in the fight against infant abandonment. Hosted by Monica Kelsey, Founder and CEO of Safe Haven Baby Boxes, this podcast dives deep into real stories, expert insights, and the life-saving impact of Safe Haven laws and baby box programs across the country.
Each episode features compelling conversations with firefighters, legal experts, healthcare professionals, policymakers, adoptive families, and even mothers who have used Safe Haven Baby Boxes. Together, they shed light on the challenges, victories, and ongoing efforts to provide safe, legal, and anonymous surrender options for parents in crisis.
From heartwarming rescue stories to policy discussions shaping the future, Beyond the Box is a must-listen for anyone passionate about saving lives and supporting vulnerable infants.
Beyond the Box
#2 - Giving Every Baby a Name - Linda Znachko
Linda Znachko, founder of He Knows Your Name Ministry, recounts her journey of providing dignity and proper burials for abandoned infants after seeing a news report about "Baby Doe" found in a dumpster. Her powerful mission statement that "Doe is not a name, a dumpster is not a grave, and a diaper is not burial clothing" has guided her work for over fifteen years.
Linda shares the heartbreaking yet inspiring journey of how she became an advocate for these infants, beginning with the tragic story of Baby Nicholas and later, Baby Amelia—whose tiny footprint became the symbol of the Safe Haven Baby Boxes movement. Featured in this episode:
Monica and Linda discuss the challenges of raising awareness about safe haven laws, the importance of naming and honoring these lost children, and the crucial role of community involvement. Their deep-rooted passion for protecting vulnerable babies and supporting struggling mothers shines through, as they emphasize the need for continued education, advocacy, and collaboration.
Monica is working hard to put Linda out of business by ensuring babies are safely surrendered rather than abandoned, while continuing to honor those who have been lost.
https://heknowsyourname.org/
https://www.nationalsafehavenalliance.org/
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This is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box, and today's episode is with Linda Zanacco, the founder of he Knows your Name Ministry, the person who I am going to put out of business, and you want to stick around so that you understand why. Good afternoon, it is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box. Today, my special guest is Linda Zanacco from he Knows your Name Ministry. I have been waiting to interview you because there is so much that we have done over the years that I don't think people really know, and so for those who don't know who you are, I mean, I know who you are, I love you, but there's people that probably don't know who you are. So can you give an idea of what you do across America?
Linda Znachko:So I founded he Knows your Name Ministries in 2009 when a baby was found in a dumpster in Indianapolis and that just tore my heart out. When I saw the news story and I had no idea, of course, what was going to come of that. I just thought it was a once and done situation, but I thought Like you just wanted to help. I just wanted to help. And when I saw the news story that said baby Doe found in a dumpster wearing a diaper, it was seared on my heart I believe from the heart of God to mine that Doe is not a name, a dumpster is not a grave and a diaper is not burial clothing. And when that just flipped in me, I knew exactly what I needed to do. I needed that baby named, I wanted that baby celebrated and I didn't know how to do that.
Linda Znachko:So I called the journalist who had was, you know, like writing the digital article that I was watching online, and he said I have no idea, I can't answer your questions, call the coroner. And I was like, well, like, who calls the coroner? When does it? I don't know the coroner, I've never called the coroner before, but okay. So I called and Alfie McGinty, you know, answers the well gets on the phone. After I talked to the receptionist, she is the Hamilton County coroner.
Monica Kelsey:She's Marion County coroner, yeah.
Linda Znachko:And chief deputy coroner at the time, now elected official, which is so cool 15 years later. But they were like, like you know, this lady's on the phone and she wants to all her questions answered and wants to know what happens to a baby that's been found in a dumpster. And they were like, well, you know, it's a long criminal investigation, it could last a long time, and I thought I don't care, right, I don't care, I just want this baby named and I want this baby to have a burial and, um, I can wait and just see what happens. Well, that criminal investigation went 13 months and you know I didn't really believe them. When they said, like we'll put your name on the case, I thought no, I really mean it and I'm going to hammer this home by calling you every week. And so I did, every Friday morning, pretty religiously, called them and just said you know, hey, what's going on? I know you can't really tell me much about the case, but week by week they told me more and more and they did several DNA tests on the baby. They were just waiting for the criminal investigation and pathology to come back. And what are the detectives saying? So some of it was out of their hands, but we just kind of detectives saying so, some of it was out of their hands.
Linda Znachko:But we just kind of muddled through 13 months of that investigation until one day when I called and they said you know, we found a mom. And I never thought they'd say that to me and I took a step back and I thought I've planned this whole funeral. I've been waiting for this baby to be released to me. I just, I guess I didn't really know what to expect. And they been waiting for this baby to be released to me. I just, I guess I didn't really know what to expect. And they said do you want to come and meet her? And I thought, well, the mom, yeah. And I thought, wait, I'm thinking like the media had portrayed her very much like she was the suspect for all this time and media really demonized her, as I think you would say at this point you can look back and say, yeah, generally we demonize the mom and think the mom must have placed this baby there. And lo and behold, mom had nothing to do with it. And so they somehow tracked her down, found out her story, realized that she had delivered this baby prematurely, the baby had died. She went into some kind of a coma, a deep, deep depression, and her sister and her mom had signed the baby over to Boatwright Funeral Home in Indianapolis and when she finally kind of came out of it which took about five months, she was.
Linda Znachko:When she finally kind of came out of it which took about five months, she was, I think her health was really bad, emotionally, mentally. She was in really bad shape because a lot of people still judge her and think, well, why didn't you find out where your child was all this time? And she really thought the baby was at a funeral home and had been cremated. So she knew the baby had died. Yes, she did know that and I honestly don't know if she knew it at the time or if she knew it because her sister and mom had told her afterwards. I don't know. But she did go to the funeral home and knock on the door and now that I know more about Boatwright I know that he's been in trouble so much that he generally Now Boatwright is the funeral home yeah, downtown Indianapolis, and I believe her she had gone and knocked on the door and no one had answered the door numerous times or called and they don't answer different things.
Linda Znachko:And so, you know, months and months pass. A mom is in crisis, she's in trauma, she's lost this baby, she's come out of a really hard depression and she decides, you know, she's ready to go find her baby and no one's answering anything. Now she never thought all the while this 13 months, when this investigation is going on and the news is reporting like this baby's been found in a dumpster. Well, never did she think that was her baby ever. And so when they knock on her door and they say, hey, you know, did you lose a baby? And the whole story comes around. Now. Her sister had taken pictures of the baby in the hospital and she had this beautiful baby that had a very full head of dark hair. And she has these pictures and they said will you come down and identify your baby? And she identified him by his hair which is so incredible.
Monica Kelsey:Okay, so, to back up, this baby was at the funeral home.
Linda Znachko:The funeral home dumped this baby, right so some kind of thing happened legally that I don't know anything about, and an eviction company went in to clear the building because they were supposed to be out and didn't get out. And so what they do is they of course hire a company right, the company is supposed to hire then another company to come in and use a dumpster that's certified for that dump, and instead they used an alleyway dumpster that was behind the Marion County Library downtown. So the baby and other things are put in this dumpster and this couple apparently dropped their kids off at school. They were really struggling and under-resourced. They go dumpster diving looking for scrap metal to sell, which we find a lot of dumpster divers that find babies.
Linda Znachko:Yes, yeah, and so they've come across this baby and, of course, freak out, but do the right thing you know, freak out, I mean cause at this point this baby's preserved right had been at least yeah.
Monica Kelsey:Yeah, and so, yeah, okay. So so, to back up, mom doesn't know, grandma and sister take baby to the funeral home. Right, funeral home gets behind on whatever it is that they're supposed to be doing, right? Uh, company comes in, probably doesn't even look in the boxes and just chucks them out in the dumpster. And then here we find a baby in the dumpster, thinking that this baby was dumped, when in fact that this was probably negligent on, well, criminal, well it's criminal and it's illegal to illegally dispose of a body.
Monica Kelsey:So did you bury him.
Linda Znachko:I did.
Monica Kelsey:You did bury him, I did so did you name him or did you let mom?
Linda Znachko:Mom had already named him, nicholas, nicholas. And it was just a beautiful story really from then on, because then I met with her and she said I can't afford anything, let's just do cremation. And I said I've been planning on burying this baby and I would love for you to come and be my guest and let me host you at your baby's funeral. And so her and her family came and some of her friends and my community came, and we all stood together and looked very different from each other. But in that moment you can't stand at the grave and celebrate a life, let alone celebrate a life like in this circumstance, and just be a part of a story of redemption and justice. Finally justice was done.
Linda Znachko:Finally she was understood and portrayed in the media and in the community as a mom who didn't dump her baby Right, and that this child went from being this dumped piece of trash to a child named Nicholas, who was given a beautiful celebration of life, wrapped in a beautiful, beautiful handmade outfit, and together we celebrated him. And he has a headstone and he's buried at Washington Parkey Cemetery. But he wasn't the first baby I buried. I thought he was going to be.
Monica Kelsey:And then is that what? There was a process of 13 months where you were waiting and waiting, and waiting. And so in that timeframe, were you just like I just need to keep doing this, or you're just seeing the news stories of babies being abandoned and you just wanted to do more? I mean, how do you go from seeing a news story on one baby to now burying hundreds of babies across America?
Linda Znachko:Well, it's an interesting journey because, of course, I didn't have vision, for he Knows your Name. I didn't have even the concept that abandonment was happening like it is and all over the place.
Monica Kelsey:You didn't know babies were being dumped every three to four days in America.
Linda Znachko:No, no, I had no idea. I mean, I was pretty fixated on taking care of Nicholas. But while I waited for Nicholas, god started laying a blueprint in my heart for he Knows your Name that by the time Nicholas was celebrated in life at the grave, I understood completely the vision of he Knows your Name and what the need was, and that there were gonna be so many different branches of the work that I do. From another baby. They call me about another baby at the corner and I'm like this baby's not on the news. This is not something I've heard about. This was not abandoned outside and I started learning that abandonment has a whole lot of different faces.
Linda Znachko:And there are babies abandoned at hospitals and coroner's offices outside, like Nicholas, and also there are babies at funeral homes that have been. We can't get our minds around how a baby could, like, die at a hospital. Parents go through that trauma, right, they're grieving, yes, and they either leave the hospital saying they're going to, they sign paperwork saying they're coming back, because that's legal for them to do that, and they don't come back, yeah. And then the next layer would be that they do designate a funeral home and so baby goes to, transported to funeral home, and then they don't go to the funeral home.
Monica Kelsey:Because maybe they can't afford the funeral.
Linda Znachko:So there is all that. There's the trustee's office in Marion County that does give vouchers for families who might need some resources, but they don't end up going. You know, and I know I mean, the argument always is well, funerals are expensive, funeral homes are corrupt, and if prices weren't so high, families could take care of their loved ones. I have learned that not to be true Personally. I have learned there are generous, kind, compassionate funeral home directors all over this country and if you just ask them for help, they are more than willing to give it. Also, there are Catholic cemeteries all over this country who give infant graves for free.
Linda Znachko:So there are ways to help families. Because, of course, no family goes to a hospital thinking they're going to deliver their baby and not come home with their baby Right, and so it's the worst, most devastating thing in the world for them. They don't have a funeral home director's name in their back. Better contact on their phone, I mean, I sure don't, you know, and so I do understand shock and grief and all of that. But then there's, you know, what I found with Nicholas was, you know, there's a family that surrounds a mom, and what is the family doing or not doing to help facilitate doing right, right, and that's a whole other soapbox. I could get on well and you know.
Monica Kelsey:So what's the far, where's the farthest you've? You've gone for a baby that's been abandoned, whether it be in a hospital or coroner's office or where's the farthest you've gone well, new jersey, and and I'm not really going anyplace anymore.
Linda Znachko:What I'm finding is that there are a lot of pro-life organizations churches, funeral homes and cemeteries and hospitals who really are willing to help if they're just coached and so I do a lot of coaching. Just on the phone People find me, call me. The farthest I've done a coaching situation is Ireland, where I was FaceTiming with a mom and I met with her bereavement team, her OB Everybody heard she was South African. Lives in Ireland, where I was FaceTiming with a mom and I met with her bereavement team, her OB, everybody. She was South African. Lives in Ireland, her husband had gone back to South Africa and she starts losing her baby. She's alone and she finds me on Instagram.
Linda Znachko:As you know, these things happen and I ended up coaching her through. Like ask these questions. These are, I think, your next steps. Of course, I don't know in your country what the laws are, but I know what the mother's heart wants, right, I mean, she doesn't. She's like I'm going to leave the hospital without my baby. That's bad enough, but how do I preserve what I can until my husband gets home? How do I still celebrate this baby's life? How do I, how do I right? And so the hospital had not been really equipped to answer her questions, and so when I FaceTimed her you know, we talked with her team of people and then they were. They were so open. I said this is what I want you to consider doing, and they did it all. Wow, and I helped equip this hospital to just, all of a sudden, do things they never thought they would ever be faced to do. They never had a family that they needed to advocate for in this way.
Linda Znachko:I think a lot of people just leave the hospital and just kind of say, ok, there's really nothing you're offering me, so there's nothing I can do. And because of really the education and awareness I do about all the things I do on Instagram and Facebook and such as you well know, there are people watching all over the world and they're like, oh no, that's what I want. I want to leave the hospital with a memory book or a memory box, and I want to leave the hospital with a memory of my child being greeted with worth and dignity and value. How do I do that? And they're not telling me that I can name my baby, but you say I can name any baby, right, and I'm like you can name any baby.
Linda Znachko:I just helped a mom name a baby that she lost 40 years ago, because 40 years ago people weren't naming babies in hospitals, that when moms lost they never saw them, they had no idea where they went, they were considered medical waste and gone, and these moms have been sick ever since about it. And so I can say no, let's talk about a name for your baby, let's memorialize your child. What would be meaningful to you? I send charm necklaces to moms all over the country, which I have one of your charm necklaces with their baby's name on it and I say wear it, because when you name your baby from stillborn loss, miscarriage loss, abortive loss, you've taken that baby from being an event and a shame and misunderstanding and confusion in your life and in your family's life.
Linda Znachko:And you've now named that child. And now when you talk about your child's name, you're kind of stepping outside of the sadness and the trauma of the event and you're talking about what else was going on Time, right, because there's so much story. And when you grab the story, you change the narrative which you say all the time. And when you change the narrative, mom's hearts are healed, and that's when things change.
Monica Kelsey:So, which brings me to, maybe, amelia. This is where we met. This is where I had no idea, kind of like you didn't know, about abandonment in this country. I had no idea that there was somebody out there burying babies that were found deceased. And so when the story of baby Amelia came across my news feed, I knew, just kind of like you, I needed to do something. I just didn't know that there was somebody else out there doing it Right, and so who do I call the coroner? And so I'm like, okay, what do we need to do? What you know all of this. And then she got me in contact with you and so tell us about baby Amelia, because a baby Amelia is the logo to the safe haven baby box. I mean, when you look at the safe haven baby box logo, this is her footprint, right, this is her, her, this is, yeah, this is her right.
Linda Znachko:So tell us about Amelia. Well, you know, it's so cool how she came along when she did, because, in the storyline of he knows your name, in the storyline of the law and just even like, I mean, it's such God's divine timing because of what, where you were at with your project and all that you were doing, if it would have happened even a year before, I mean, you may have had a different response, right Like, maybe not coming to the funeral or whatever. And so, yeah, december 28th 2014, a hiker on a, you know, is hiking on a freezing cold day at a park in Indianapolis and comes up to a baby. There are tire tracks in the snow right up to where the baby was umbilical cord, placenta and all all the evidence of a full delivery happening right there and left there. It obviously happened at night because the baby had been there a while.
Linda Znachko:And I read the autopsy results and they horrifically say all the details of the shape of the baby.
Linda Znachko:And I say that also to not only like realize that leaving a baby outside, of course you and I can say that's horrible and wrong, it's criminal, but when we realize the elements and why, right Like, so here it's freezing cold in Indiana in December, december 28th, and this baby is going to like probably froze to death first and then is left, and now there's just all this raw delivery, everything everywhere.
Linda Znachko:So guess who loves that? Animals Right, and the nightlife at a field day, not only with all of that, but with her as well. And when I got connected with Alfie about this now, mind you, I've been in touch with Alfie now for six years over all kinds of things, since baby Nicholas it very quickly she says I'm, there's not going to be a criminal investigation for this, like there was for Nicholas I didn't fully understand why until I read the autopsy results. Well, there wasn't much. There wasn't much pathology to do on this baby and not much information they were going to gather from this baby, and so that she was released to me within 10 days, which was incredible.
Monica Kelsey:So that's almost unheard of it is, it's almost like because we I've never seen that I know.
Linda Znachko:I know. And then I have another baby that was left outside, also released to me very quickly for the same reason. It just logistically practically doesn't make sense to hold onto a baby when they're not evidence anymore and that's really sad and tragic. So you and I encounter criminal investigations where they need to keep the baby because the baby's evidence, and so when I say the baby wasn't really enough for evidence anymore, I'm telling you a lot, right, but when that baby was on the news and they're talking about this hiker and the cameras showing the set setting of the park, like only not where exactly the baby was left, but it's cold, it's snowy, all the things you know and they show this picture of a blue sweatshirt with an emblem on it, like your emblem on your shirt, you know, and it said Vincenzo, university Aviation Department, university Aviation Department.
Linda Znachko:And so that's what they were kind of going after, like do anybody know anyone who was recently wearing this sweatshirt or went to Vincennes University and had one of these? Are they even being sold? Now? You know they're like what are they going to go after? How old is this sweatshirt? Yes, exactly, and so that never ended up being anything that they could get any information of. But the baby was wrapped in a sweatshirt. So we know that a mother delivered this baby, wrapped her child up, and that to me is an expression of love and acknowledgement that a baby should be. You know, and it was. That's kind of sweet to me and it tenderizes my heart.
Monica Kelsey:But there was a fire station two miles down the street, with the safe haven law allowing this parent to walk to that fire station or drive to that fire station and surrender this infant. And I'm like there was a vehicle, because there was tire tracks Totally, but she drove there or somebody drove there, right fire tracks Totally.
Linda Znachko:But she drove there or somebody drove there, right. But it screams to me that, giving her the benefit of the doubt, of course, because she is a mom, she did wrap her baby, that she didn't know the law, which is you and I now know, right, it's only been was very common back then.
Monica Kelsey:It's still common today in parts of the country, unfortunately. Yes, not in the state. No, indiana is well equipped with a safe education, yes, but there was no education.
Linda Znachko:So we know the government didn't spend any money on education or awareness. So here we are with a law that was put in place in 2000. And we're in 2015 now and likely, right, mom didn't know. Yeah, and even if she had a phone, which she probably did in 2015, she had a car she didn't go to the fire station.
Monica Kelsey:Right. And so this baby was found, taken to the coroner's office and you get this call from the coroner saying hey, I got this baby, you want to bury this baby, right. And so 10 days later then you take custody of this baby, right, and you have to name this baby, right. So tell me about the name Amelia.
Linda Znachko:Well, you and I had been in touch at the time and you had hope on your heart for her and, um, I couldn't get Amelia out of my mind Because of the aviation, totally. I mean I saw that on the news and I was like her name's Amelia, you know. And then I looked it up to see what it meant and it means defender and I thought, oh, I was like I know that in the book of Proverbs the word defenders capitalized, because I've always studied the names of God, and I was like his names are capitalized because I've always I've always studied the names of God. And I was like his names are capital, capitalized, of course, and they're his character attributes, like I thought, oh, this is a character attribute of God's that this child is going to carry, who God is on her, and I knew that that meant a lot of legacy. I just didn't know what.
Linda Znachko:And I I was praying about her name and, you know, and I thought, lord, what is she going to defend? And I felt in my heart him say to me the safe haven law. And you know, I was like what? We already have that why would she defend the law? You know, I didn't get it at all. And well, here we are right, 10 years later because it's just, we just had her 10 year anniversary 10 years later. Here we are right 10 years later because it's just, we just had her 10 year anniversary 10 years later. Here we are and we've seen her do nothing but defend that law by becoming the footprint and the face for education and awareness because of your box so, looking back now, we know her purpose.
Monica Kelsey:Oh, we know her purpose, um, we know that her birth mom loved her, probably didn't know the law, and so, after that funeral, what were your thoughts? What, what, what did you feel like you needed to do with her to bring that legacy forward? Because we met at this funeral, right? Well, I was never met before.
Linda Znachko:Right, we had talked, but I I what I knew to your question is that you and I were supposed to do something right, because when you tapped me on the shoulder and we stood over that grave and looked down and this beautiful marker was there, um, and you said, that's the problem and I have a solution. I mean, I had no idea what you meant and I don't think you fully knew what you meant.
Monica Kelsey:To be honest, I'm still trying to understand what Christ has in store for me.
Linda Znachko:Exactly, and that's where I was. I think, like what is this Like? I think we both knew it was huge in our hearts and we were swelling with like goodness. And you know her name. I gave hope as her last name for you, no-transcript.
Linda Znachko:And so I called the tech at the coroner's office, jessica, and I said, hey, how would you like to name her Her middle name? You've had, you handled her, is the only person who handled, the only person who handled her, other than the EMT people, you know. And I said you cleaned her, you held her. And I said you cleaned her, you held her and she's like you know, it was the most devastating, gut-wrenching thing to do, but I could only do it because you were involved. And if I didn't know her name, I don't know what I would have done.
Linda Znachko:And that rang true to me because of another baby I took care of that I. That was found in a Creek and when I named him, the tech same was like I'm so healed because of my trauma, child, um, because of a name, and it's just like that keeps coming over everything. And so she gave Amelia grace, and so that that that gave her her name, which is so beautiful, um, but I knew going forward that that name defender of name, which is so beautiful, but I knew going forward that that name Defender of Grace and Hope is really the most powerful thing and I knew that God was going to do something. And he has clearly through both of us and you know, giving testimony even for her story on your behalf and holding this up in the Senate chamber. You know, the morning I left and I was so nervous and I thought what am I going to say? You know, when you're standing in the Senate chamber, I mean, it's just so unnerving Because we testified.
Monica Kelsey:So we testified in 2015 for a bill to allow baby boxes for the first state in the country. This had never been done before. And we stood there together, you holding this in your hands. Um, I had no idea what I was going to say, cause you know me, I just kind of roll by whatever comes out of my mouth. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not, but, um, but we stood there not really realizing the impact that we were about to make on this country. You know, you through Amelia and me through Christ, really you know. But so, standing in the chamber with the legislators, one of the things that I remember the most that you said, and I'll never forget it, is someone said well, what if a baby dies in your box? And they were asking me this question.
Linda Znachko:It was the health department, yeah of course it was.
Monica Kelsey:I mean I was like, yeah, so they asked me what if a baby dies in your box? And they were asking me this question. It was the health department. Yeah, of course it was. I mean I was like, yeah, so they asked me what if a baby dies in your box? And your response. I had never thought of it this way, but your response really changed my thinking of how I responded to people. When people say that and I want you to say that today, I want you to say what you said to the Senate that day in 2015.
Linda Znachko:Yes, if a baby dies in the box. The baby was already going to die within that 90 seconds, right? I really believe that there's nothing that that box is going to do to that baby. The baby would have died anyway. However, dying in a box after having the attempted rescue and surrender on their life is full of dignity and honor. There is no dignity and honor on a baby that is left outside to be chewed up by nightlife so by just taking that baby and putting that baby in a box. I believe the child has dignity and honor on them, like I said, but also so does the mother. A mother who chooses to carry and chooses to take that child and say I'm giving this baby over to opportunity is for herself, even a rescue right For her own soul. Leaving a baby outside to die is going to kill a mother's spirit and heart and I believe that's what we're also protecting these mothers from.
Monica Kelsey:Now, has Amelia's birth mom been found? No, she's never been found. So do you think she's out there just devastated by what has come from the death of her daughter, but also finding hope through what she represents?
Linda Znachko:yeah, I think she's carrying basically the conviction right of what she did um, regardless of what shape that baby was in this, that baby could have been stillborn, yes, and maybe right like, maybe she felt like what's the difference? I didn't kill this baby, but I believe there's a spirit of death on that child because of what she chose to do, right Well, and I don't want that, for I don't want that for anyone.
Monica Kelsey:No, no, and you know, we've had a situation where a baby was placed in our box that was deceased. We've didn't, we haven't hit it, We've. We actually made it public and it it again brought up the fact that, um, you know, this mother drove all the way across Idaho to a box on the other side of Idaho and this baby had been gone for 12 hours when this baby was placed in one of our boxes. And so the detective actually I was talking with him and I actually used your line you know that at least this baby was placed in this box, where we can bury this baby at its entirety instead of in parts, because if this baby would have been thrown in the woods, it would not have been the same story. This baby would have been ravaged by animals, right?
Linda Znachko:And so in the story on this child, like, I believe, there's legacy on every life, and so the legacy would have been the dumpster child, right, the baby in the woods, the baby whatever. Instead, this is the baby that the mom I mean I can't even imagine the state of mind she was in to bring her baby that had died to a safe place so that the child could celebrate in life. Right, I mean that I hope to meet her someday and thank her.
Monica Kelsey:I mean that is a heroic heart, you know, in through the years I've struggled with some of it, you know, because knowing some of the details of these babies, but I think the farther that we get, the more we see the hearts of these moms, you know, and the safe haven law in general, you know, a woman can walk up to a fire station and hand their child to a person. Why are we still finding babies at the doorsteps? And it's because their heart is there, yes, but they just have this one. They just can't walk in and hand their child to a person. And so having these boxes at fire stations is pivotal. And to have baby Amelia's footprint at every one of these boxes Right Shows that she lived Right. You know she lived and she's living through us. You know her legacy has, will forever have changed the safe haven movement. We've always said this.
Linda Znachko:Her footprint has literally changed the safe haven movement and I think it also makes these abandoned babies come alive because, as we did that day when I was giving testimony and I showed her footprint and I said to the Senate chamber every one of you have one of these, right, you know, every one of you that have children and grandchildren have this in their scrapbook, mine's in a manila envelope in my office for Amelia, but it shows she lived, because the stamp of God is on her.
Linda Znachko:She's an image bearer of the king, daughter of a king, just like it normalized her and leveled the playing field. And I think abandonment generally is like the invisible baby over there that has this traumatic story that we can't relate to, which is true because no one saw Amelia right but Jessica, and so it brought her to a place that no one could deny that she was worthy. And when we do that, we then say, therefore, it's criminal when you throw them away. That's why it's criminal, because you're taking a human life and disposing Right. And when we do that, the culture of death just swallows that up right and we want to overlook those things because they're so nasty to think about. But if we don't look at them like we did this and her square in the face, we will never have change, we will never raise awareness to the point where we see this whole thing eradicated.
Monica Kelsey:So what would you say to Amelia's birth mom If she ever walked up to you today? I mean, I get moms that utilize our boxes, that I'm friends with now and I learned so much from that. I bet you do, and loving on them is one of the things that I think they need the most. But if a woman walked up to you and said I'm baby Amelia's birth mom and I I left her in Eagle Creek woods in 2014. And I know you buried her, what would you say to her? I mean, well, have you, have you thought about it, I would.
Linda Znachko:I would thank her for having the courage to acknowledge herself to me and say thank you that, uh, you felt like you could come, and I would then thank the Lord above that I was approachable enough that she could come to me and say something.
Monica Kelsey:Well, because you've obviously made, if she does, if she would ever step forward. You've obviously put that out there, that you're not going to judge her Never, you know safe haven and I'm not going to turn her in either.
Linda Znachko:I'm not no, I mean no, and that's not my point, right? That's not. This is all. The justice has already happened, right? You and I have seen the justice because of her legacy. I don't need to see a mom put in jail, for goodness sakes. Uh, that to me is just not. I mean, I helped get a woman out of jail, right, and I was a champion for her before that judge, and you know a whole lot of things for a whole lot of reasons. But, um, I but I think there there are consequences and unfortunately, when we do try to put these protective things in place, we're trying to protect moms even from themselves.
Linda Znachko:For when they're desperate and under-resourced and maybe you know, sometimes I think, okay, did you have a gun to your head?
Linda Znachko:Did you?
Linda Znachko:Was someone hurting you, like all of that we know now, 15 years later, after he Knows your Name started, that we know now, 15 years later, after he knows your name started, we know so much more about mental illness and trauma and abuse and sex trafficking and all the things that we didn't even scratch the surface of 15 years ago.
Linda Znachko:Right, I will give a mom the benefit of the doubt all day, or whatever else she was going through at the time Not what I wish she would have chosen, of course, but I also know God's in control and I also serve a God who does not make mistakes, and he wanted Amelia to be mine and he saw to it that she did get a mother who took care of her, and I carry her legacy and I am her voice, and so that is what God wanted for her. His purpose for her was, and has been fulfilled and carried by you and I both, and so I. There's something way bigger than me and something way bigger than this mom happening, and so I don't need for her to Well, I think there's something way bigger than all of us.
Monica Kelsey:You know that's happening and we've seen the success of what's happened when forces come together for the betterment of moms and babies. You know you've been at a lot of our blessings, you know, championing or supporting safe haven, baby boxes and and just being a voice for us and these moms, and I hope one day she reaches out to you. Um, I, I hope one day she reaches out to you. I do, um, because one, I want her to find peace, um, and forgiveness, um, whatever that looks like for her Right, um, but I hope that that one day we can look back and we, we know exactly what our plan was all along, and I think we're still trying to figure that out.
Monica Kelsey:You know we're not all over America yet. We're still, you know, kind of one state at a time. You know I actually testified the other day for a state that was against, you know, against the boxes, I mean, and it's crazy how there are people that hate adoption, that just fight us like right and left, and it's like I hear you, but what? What's the alternative? What's the alternative? And so, in order for us to protect these babies, we have to give options that might not be ideal for what you think they should be, but unfortunately this isn't perfect world.
Linda Znachko:No, you know, and it is all sad when you look at it only from that vantage point Right, but when you can turn and say, like you said, we offer resources or options, we can, we can come alongside, and I think you bring up the, you know, the important part of us coming together and that's really, I believe, god's heart for his, for this world and for what's going to really be what change is all about. It's where are we collaborating and saying you do you, I'm doing me, this is what we're all doing, and then we get to each celebrate together how the working together and collaborative effort that we are doing helps people think about things differently, see things differently. I love this footprint because the mother also has one, and I often say at your dedications a mother has to use her own two feet to walk up that sidewalk and that is her choosing mind, body and soul to surrender herself, her reputation, her fears, her, everything that she chose to carry. She's choosing to give her baby the best that she has and if it's only her feet and her hands to hand over right, walk up to the box, a place of safety and medical care, and put that baby in a box. She is a champion, and I think there's something about that, like if we all would walk in a right direction, justice will be served. And I don't mean like hammer come down gavel kind of justice. I mean that together we serve humanity and we elevate it, because we are still very much a country saturated in a culture of death because of the of abortion Right, and I only bring that up to say when we make decisions out of convenience and we make decisions that are very disposable minded, you know there's a result, right, and how do we preserve a mother's soul in the process of all this?
Linda Znachko:That's what. That's what all of this is. We're not just about babies, I'm not just about me. That's what all of this is. We're not just about babies. I'm not just about babies. I'm about and I get this all the time a mother that comes back and sees on Instagram that her child was celebrated in life and sung over. Jesus Loves Me was sung to her child in a lullaby. That baby went down into the dirt, which is a new cradle with a blanket and a beautiful gown and a beautiful casket.
Linda Znachko:I hope a mother sees that and says that's what my child deserves, right? I mean a mother of loss who, like a baby, was left at a hospital or a coroner's office, that she couldn't fulfill her God-given right, I think, all the way through death to the grave. As hard as that might be, I'm happy to do that. And I've had moms come back and look at the granite headstone in the cemetery and say everybody in my book does right. If you need a headstone, you call me and people.
Linda Znachko:I have headstones all over the country because I believe our names should be written in the dirt and when they are, they are remembered and celebrated and that's what we get to do together in all kinds of ways with all my other resources and donors. But to say, mother comes back, I see things at a grave and I wonder who put that there. I hope a mom comes and sees her baby and that she feels about the fact that she can have that moment, even though she didn't bury I did. That's okay, happy to do that. Well, you're changing the narrative.
Monica Kelsey:Well, you're changing the narrative, you're changing the narrative and together we have uh swept across this country doing this and I, I love you. I've I've known you for 10 years now and you never cease to amaze me, uh, with your heart. Thank you really. Really. Do you know? And, interesting enough, back in 2020, we were standing in Ocala you flew all the way to Ocala to help me bless the very first box in Florida. Yeah, you remember? Oh yeah.
Linda Znachko:Because this was a big deal. You know, this was a huge deal.
Monica Kelsey:And while we're standing there, you have your phone and you like I've got to show you this and I'm like what is it? And you're like this is TikTok. You remember this? Oh yes. And you're like, look at the views on this one video I posted and I'm like, really 27 million.
Monica Kelsey:I'm like people are like watch, like, and you're like you have to get on TikTok, what are you doing? You got to get on TikTok and I'm like, oh well, whatever. And then somebody on my board said the same thing, and so after that I was like okay, well, maybe I should do a couple of videos. The first video I ever did got 28 million views. My most video is up to 60 million, and it's like people are hungry for change, people are hungry for hope, and so when you have somebody like yourself that comes in and says you know what I can help with this, you know I can do this. Well, you know what's it going to cost me. You know my can do this. Well, you know what's it going to cost me. You know my time. Okay, whatever, maybe a few dollars here and there, but you're bringing hope to a situation that people think are hopeless and that is truly changing the narrative.
Linda Znachko:Well, it's changing it because it's also a community is being changed by the narrative, which means their action steps are changing. They're feeling like they can get engaged and we're everything we're doing. We're inviting people into at some level. Right, and I have things happening all over this country. I don't have to go there anymore, I don't have to go to Washington state and here and there I have nurses in a hospital in Washington state doing absolutely amazing things in their community. They are burying babies. They have changed their hospital network's way of dealing with stillborn babies or miscarried babies or whatever. They have, whatever level that is according to their law. But they're doing memorial services. Now they're inviting parents into a naming service. I mean it's, it's happening because of the social media platform. People are listening, watching, thinking differently, right and acting differently and they're saying, okay, well, I can't do what Linda does, I can't do what Monica does, but I can do what I do right here.
Linda Znachko:Right now, I happen to know a legislator. I think I'm going to call him and ask him about the box. I'm a nurse, a supervising nurse in my hospital. I wonder if the next board meeting I'm going to call him and ask him about the box. I'm a nurse, a supervising nurse in my hospital. I wonder if the next board meeting I'm invited to go to I start talking about how can we implement a memorial service into what we do quarterly to celebrate parents of loss, infant loss.
Linda Znachko:Oh golly, management of the whole gamut of it is being changed. It's like I don't even have the vision for all of the places it's changing, you know, and other places that are saying like we're going to start helping families get headstones, even though they're expensive, maybe someone will start donating them. And it's like start thinking outside the box and see how you, right where you are, can do what you do and then engage your community so that if you start collaborating, like we've collaborated, I think things are going to really change. But I also hear, monica, that people have watched our friendship and they've watched what we're doing and how much we love each other and champion each other. And people say I don't know many women who together or can do that together very well.
Monica Kelsey:And it's always a competition sometimes, and it's like nobody's winning here. You know, nobody's winning, we're tired. We're tired, you know, and for sure.
Linda Znachko:So and we're humans and we can look at each other as women who are leading and doing what we're doing and have compassion for one another and say, yeah, life has hit you really hard and life has hit me really hard and we can help nurture each other through those seasons to stay on mission, to stay in the vision that God has given us and with the passion and I want to fuel your passion to keep going as you have mine and the more we do that, I think we're also modeling. Come on, women, come together, bring like lay your comparison and your competition aside and come together with all that you have all the resources, and see how much the resources and see how much I could have not said it better myself.
Monica Kelsey:You absolutely nailed it. I love you. Like I said, you've been my rock on some of the darkest days of my life, especially at the beginning, when we were fighting and fighting hard and we kept fighting. And now here we are today with all this. You and I weren't fighting. No, we were not fighting.
Linda Znachko:We were fighting other people, we were fighting other people Usually health department, yeah and for laws and to be heard. You know, and you know to be heard and to tell our story and to get people to listen. And you know to carry the authority that God has put on us, to carry this passion. And this mission has not always been easy for either one of us.
Linda Znachko:We've gotten a lot of persecution at times and I remember I had gotten my fair share on social media and I you had invited me to come to a box dedication. I remember even where it was and I walked in and I felt pretty shredded and I walked in and you looked at me and you said I knew you where it was. And I walked in and I felt pretty shredded and I walked in and you looked at me and you said I knew you'd show up Because Molly kept saying you know, is Monica wondering if you're coming? And I was like I didn't. I couldn't even think straight to see if, like you were worried about me coming or not, because the last thing I wanted to do is be in front of a camera. And you were like I knew you'd come.
Monica Kelsey:I was like thank you for the confidence to stay on mission. Well, in a couple of situations I have defended you to the hilt on social media, and that's what friends do, that's what supporters do, you know it's it's don't let the don't let the negative people get you down. Right, because every day you're going to get that right, you know. And every every day we, we battle these battles, but at the end of the day we have to take our pants off, get into bed, and tomorrow we got to get up, we got to dress up and we got to show up again. Right, because there are lives on the line that's right that are banking on us getting absolutely what we do, absolutely. So, yeah, melinda, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. I love that you came all the way to Woodburn to be in our shop and spend your morning with us.
Linda Znachko:Well, I blessed your first box here? Yes, you did. That was such a treat and I am so thankful to know you and to serve with you and I, you know, Woodburn is changing the world.
Monica Kelsey:Well, and as I said at the beginning, my job is to put you out of business, and I hope that one day we are not burying babies, we are celebrating them Right being placed in our box or in the arms of a firefighter or a hospital staff. Well, anyways, this is Beyond the Box with Monica Kelsey, here in Woodburn, indiana, with Linda Zanacco from. He Knows your Name. Thank you again for coming. We appreciate you. We appreciate all that you do. We love baby Amelia. We're so thankful that you allowed us to take her legacy and run with it, and that's exactly what we've done. So God bless you. Anyways, we'll see you again next time on Beyond the Box with Monica Kelsey.