Beyond the Box
Beyond the Box with Monica Kelsey is a powerful podcast dedicated to raising awareness, educating the public, and advocating for change in the fight against infant abandonment. Hosted by Monica Kelsey, Founder and CEO of Safe Haven Baby Boxes, this podcast dives deep into real stories, expert insights, and the life-saving impact of Safe Haven laws and baby box programs across the country.
Each episode features compelling conversations with firefighters, legal experts, healthcare professionals, policymakers, adoptive families, and even mothers who have used Safe Haven Baby Boxes. Together, they shed light on the challenges, victories, and ongoing efforts to provide safe, legal, and anonymous surrender options for parents in crisis.
From heartwarming rescue stories to policy discussions shaping the future, Beyond the Box is a must-listen for anyone passionate about saving lives and supporting vulnerable infants.
Beyond the Box
Dignity in Death: A Coroner's Mission to Honor Abandoned Babies
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This is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box. We're in the studio today. We are not on the road, which is a really good thing for us, since we were on the road for 18 days, but today we are in the studio with the coroner for Marion County, indiana, and I am so excited to interview her. So welcome to the podcast, thank you. Thank you for having me. I you know, I have been so intrigued by all of the things that you and Linda. Linda Zanacco is a friend of yours and a friend of mine.
Speaker 1:We all, we all love Linda, but I have just been so inspired by you guys working together to make sure that no baby doesn't have a name or a place to fall. Yes, you know, and so, for those who don't know much about you, tell our audience who you are and why you're so important to Monica Kelsey.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. So I am Alfarina McGinty, but I go by Alfie, everybody calls me Alfie. I am the Marion County Cornerinty, but I go by Alfie, everybody calls me Alfie. I am the Marion County Corner in Indianapolis, indiana, and I've been with the corner's office for 28 years 28, get out, 28 years and when I tell you I still love going to work every single day. It is a passion that I never knew that I had and that fills me every day to do the work that I do.
Speaker 1:You know that's, um, that's important honestly, because when you love your job, you you like going into work, but you see the good and the bad in people and so you loving to go to work, it's packed. It's kind of incredible, you know, because there are some bad days, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, insert more good by giving answers, providing education, helping people through the worst day of their life. So that gives me some fulfillment in life to just get up another day and do the job again and again, and again.
Speaker 1:So how many? So 28 years in the coroner's office again. So how many?
Speaker 2:so 28 years in the coroner's office.
Speaker 1:How many autopsies?
Speaker 2:have you guys done there? Oh gosh, so we do roughly 1600 a year. So multiply that times 28. Oh my gosh, so that's autopsies every single year. So times 28,. I don't even know what that number is so not everybody gets an autopsy when they pass away.
Speaker 1:So who gets an autopsy? Who determines who gets an autopsy?
Speaker 2:So our office determines who gets an autopsy and that's based on the type of investigation, it's based on the circumstances of the death. So on all homicides, all of those get an autopsy. So homicides, suicides, accidents, child and infant deaths, those cases that are suspicious in nature, those decedents will get an autopsy, because our number one priority is to determine the cause and manner of death. So why did this person die? And a lot of times we can't determine that without performing an autopsy.
Speaker 1:Right, Okay, and so that alone I mean, because some autopsies I always see it and it's like, oh, it's inconclusive.
Speaker 2:What does?
Speaker 1:inconclusive mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so usually it's called undetermined. So we can only do so much as humans right to look at a body that has been presented to us from whatever circumstances preceded the death and determine what caused that person to die. So in a lot of cases where the cause of death and manner of death is what we call undetermined, that just means we do not have enough information or we do not have enough available body or pieces of information from an investigation to say why or how a person died and then ultimately the manner of death is undetermined because we just don't know how that person died. So we can't say what caused their death in terms of was it a homicide, was a suicide, was it some other type of incident, accident that caused that person to die.
Speaker 1:So we do have roughly seven to ten percent of our cases that are undetermined I didn't know that it was that high so you've you've seen it all, probably a lot, and is there any? Is there ever a case where you sit back and you think this hurts my heart? You know, like Several, yeah, several cases.
Speaker 2:In my years of conducting and overseeing death investigations that it's not a constant review in my head of what has happened. Now, in some cases I can't help it and I have to learn to process those types of investigations in those ways Right. Like. What else can I do to make sure that this possibly doesn't happen again for those types of investigations in those ways right Like? What else can I do to make sure that this possibly doesn't happen again for those types of cases? But mostly it has occurred with those that have involved children.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask that question because you know I'm a retired firefighter and medic and we act differently, not that we don't care about everyone but, things change when it's an infant or a child involved. It's it's especially when you're dealing with the aftermath or the emotions of it. It it lingers inside of you.
Speaker 1:I think for me anyway, as dealing with a child, and so you know, and that's kind of why I wanted to talk to you today was baby Amelia, which is the footprint of our logo Safe Haven Baby Boxes. The logo on Safe Haven Baby Boxes has a baby's footprint.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And it is baby Amelia's. Wow. And baby Amelia passed away in December of 2014. And, as of the beginning of this year, she had been the only baby that had ever been found deceased from abandonment in our country or in our state, and since then we've had another one, and the investigation is still ongoing for that. But for baby Amelia, what surprised you? I mean, is there anything that you can talk about? What surprised you? I mean, what is there anything that you can talk about? You know, because your staff is the only one that got to love her. I mean, when you got her, she was deceased, but you guys are the only ones that got to show her love, and you know that for me, is important. I don't care if you're passed away, I don't care. It's the respect thing for for her. And so what can you tell us about her? I mean, were you guys? Was that one of those cases that just tore you up?
Speaker 2:So you know, in conducting death investigations again, you kind of have to go into situations and be prepared for the worst, right, and be able to mentally compartmentalize. How does that make you feel? One of the things with that particular case was that it was a baby and you know, I always think of I have children myself, right, so I think of our babies cannot do anything to defend themselves. And in most children, that is the thing that really gets to me is that the baby or the child has no ability to defend for self-defense. And in that case, the way in which the you know she was kind of left, I thought were there any other options? You know, were there opportunities for someone to help that mother?
Speaker 2:And I always go back to the mother because as a mother, mother we know that we face challenges, right, in so many different ways when we have children. So was there an opportunity for the mother to have made a different decision? And you know, I will never know that because we just will never know what that mother's situation was. But when we, when we went on that death investigation scene and it was a deputy coroner and the deputy coroners call me when there are these, you know, fascinating or high-profile type of cases, and anytime there's a child found in a situation like that, they call, and I remember talking to the deputy saying okay, so are you okay.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, are you okay to continue this? Do you need any assistance? And she was like she was fine and I kind of guided her in. You know maybe some things to look for. Was there any trauma? What you know did she? Was there anything on scene that would have given any indication as to why this would have happened? There was nothing there, obviously nothing from the exam that exhibited anything either. And so having the opportunity to just again show love to that baby because if no one else we show love to is to the kids, because they are defenseless. So when we, when we examine her, um, the findings obviously in most cases are pending because we have to wait for a lot of test results and things like that to come back, but nothing significant, you know, came back.
Speaker 2:So it's just like so did she? Was she alive and then placed there? Or had she died and the mother didn't know what to do? What was this there? You know, as an investigator I have so many questions, right?
Speaker 2:I'm nosy right so we're women, we're nosy yes, I had so many questions that I wish that at some point we would have been able to ask the mother in a non-judgmental way right right, being non-judgmental, um as to what she was going through with baby amelia. That would have led to that. So, just so many questions, just right questions during the course of that entire investigation, like pleading with anyone who knows anything to come forward. Um, don't be afraid to come forward. Those kind of things that just and she was.
Speaker 1:She was wrapped in a sweatshirt that said aviation department, vincennes university. Do you think, when you see stuff like that, do you think that this mother drove there or do you think that she was in college. Do you that? Do you think that this mother drove there or do you think that she was in college? Do you think that she was from the area? I mean, what's going through your mind when you see things like that? Are you automatically thinking this is a baby that you know?
Speaker 2:You know there's so many questions. You know, for that particular case I did not initially think that this was a mother that came to Indianapolis, marion County, to leave the baby. My first thought was she grabbed that sweatshirt from somewhere. You know that was the initial thought. She grabbed that sweatshirt from somewhere and wrapped the baby up in the sweatshirt. So we just don't know. And again, so many questions.
Speaker 1:Right, and she was only what a mile from a fire station.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so fire stations in the state of Indiana are safe haven locations where all you have to do is hand the child to a person. At the time there was no baby boxes, but she still had the opportunity to do the right thing by placing her child with one of the workers at a fire station or a hospital, and the fire station was, you know, a mile away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know when you say that one of the things that you know I think about often is community education.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So do people know that it's okay to do that? Do people even still know that it's okay to place them in your beautiful baby boxes and not be judged and not be, you know, looked at negatively or not be prosecuted? Do people really know and this was you know what 10 years ago now, 11 years ago that this is, that this has taken place and there were no baby boxes? What was, what was our communication to the community at the time about the ability to just drop?
Speaker 1:a baby off. Well, I don't think there was any education back then. You know, nobody was talking about it. You know, when we started Safe Haven Baby Boxes, the one thing that I always said was we have to be in front of the camera all the time and we get criticized for that. You know, because we're, you know, we're just looking for attention or something like that, and I'm like no, we're trying to educate the community that this is available. And if it is available, why aren't we talking about it? You know and um, but you know the the original authors of the safe Haven law.
Speaker 1:Back in 1999, in the year 2000, they, they had a great idea of passing this law, but what we didn't do back then is put money into education and awareness at the state level not saying that the state should be required to to educate everyone, but we just we didn't take it that step further where I think it would have made a big difference if we would have mandated education in every school. You know, every eighth grade through senior in health classes, needs to know that this law exists, not because we think every kid's going to use it, but we don't know who's going to use it and we don't know whose friend's friend's going to use it. And we have to make sure that these kids know that it exists for when the crisis occurs, because when the crisis occurs, they're not thinking clearly, you know, and so they have to know ahead of time. You know, now, with the boxes, you know, on Tik TOK, we have 1.3 million followers on Tik TOK. It's just incredible the amount of um, the amount of uh, uh education that we're able to do on an app that is made for these kids.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean I'm 52 years old, alfie, and I never wanted to be on TikTok at all, you know. I mean, when they, my board was like, hey, let's, let's do a TikTok, and Linda actually was like telling me, hey, let's do this, and I was like this is crazy, like these people are dancing and singing on this app. That is not me, you know, and so so Linda goes. Well, just do, just do one one education video standing in front of the box, that thing got 28 million views, that video, and I was like we are onto something. And so now all of our education, all of our blessing, everything is put online on on Facebook and TikTok because of the education. On Facebook and TikTok because of the education. So you're absolutely right, education was not part of the curriculum back in 2014.
Speaker 1:So did she know, you know, I mean, of course she knew that throwing a baby away like that was not the right thing to do but did she know that there was an option, you know, of surrendering this child and I think also that's why the baby boxes are so important. Is there's no judgment there. There's no shame, there's no blame and there's no judgment, you know, of surrendering this child, and I think also that's why the baby boxes are so important. Is there's no judgment there? There's no shame.
Speaker 1:There's no blame and there's no judgment. Judgment at a baby box, right, because none of our none of our boxes are on camera.
Speaker 1:Actually, the locations sign a contract with us one-on-one, like caramel fire signed a contract with us saying they will not put the baby box itself on camera oh you can have the sidewalk, you can have the road, you can have the other side of the building, but you can't have the baby box on camera, because there are women that want that anonymity piece. Now you know, can the police find out who put a baby in a box? If they wanted to, probably, I mean you just, there's cameras everywhere.
Speaker 1:They could do some stuff, but but the initial case, or the initial um, you know, surrender, is not on camera. Amazing, yeah, and and that I think um is critical to this movement, because we're in a, you know, we're in a phase right now where these kids, you know, they'll take their phone and they'll text you, but they're not going to call you, you know. And so they want the anonymity they don't want, they don't want to talk to anyone, and so so, so baby Amelia going back to her and you might not be able to talk about this, or maybe you will, but if you don't, just tell me, but did the death investigation come up with any cause of death?
Speaker 2:I believe it was determined that it was undetermined.
Speaker 1:It was undetermined, I believe it was determined, that it was undetermined.
Speaker 2:It was undetermined, okay, and it's common that that happens in a lot of babies. Rather they're, you know, found like that, or rather they are in a residence Infant deaths are the hardest to determine a cause on them because the way in which and I can explain more specifically for baby Amelia so oftentimes it's very difficult to determine if a baby was born alive or as a fetus right, and so, determining if the baby was born alive, what other problems were there at birth? You know, when we have children there are always complications.
Speaker 1:Like a cord around the neck or something like that.
Speaker 2:What else was occurring that could have caused a complication that caused that baby to die Right. So the cause and manner of death were undetermined, just because we cannot determine in a lot of cases why babies die, just because we cannot determine in a lot of cases why babies die. And so when we review these investigations, it takes a lot, a lot goes into it to look at every single thing across the board.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, in those cases that's really what we come up with. So how long does one case take you to from the minute you get the call that hey, there was a baby placed in Eagle Creek Woods, from that moment until you put out the actual final report? How much time goes into that?
Speaker 2:It could be up to 12 weeks. Up to 12 weeks because there's so many things that we look at. We try to determine, you know, is the baby in the correct age range based on size and weight when found? Looking at if there was anything else, any trauma, any injuries, looking at just microbiological tests that have to be completed that we outsource. Looking at what we call histology, which is tissue sections of the organs to see was there something that was congenital, even about any tissue the heart, the lungs, any of those organs that contribute to life. We look at those to see if there were any abnormalities to them. And then we take those to a bigger meeting with multiple doctors who are looking at all of the information that we have to determine a cause and or manner of death.
Speaker 1:So it's not you that makes that determination. It is a bunch of people put together that look at everything that you guys, your investigation, comes up with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I hire forensic pathologists who are the best of the best, right. So forensic pathologists are doctors that go to medical school to look at forensic death investigations and look at the body in death, look at disease, and so when we have these cases, we all come together and sit at the table and say, okay, so what do we have? What are our findings? And then what do these findings represent? Do these findings represent trauma, injury, you know, whatever else could be possibly available? What do the findings represent? And then, what is the cause of the death? And then how does that contribute to the manner of the death? Is it a homicide? Does someone inflict injury on this infant or child to cause their death? Was this an accident? Was this something else? Or can we not determine that? And in most cases we just cannot make that determination.
Speaker 1:So now you've got my whole mind going here now. So has there ever been a case that you just like, just blew your mind like you did not see this coming?
Speaker 2:It is a case, but I can't talk about it because it was one of those cases that is just like I question and I really want to talk to the mother. I'm going to find a way to talk to the mother, but it's one of those cases where I think that there were options and I question do we still have enough information out there for options for mothers or parents who are struggling with children? But it's that case. But what I can say is that you know I want to do more to get that information out immediately following that particular death. I'm like, what else can I say? So again, like you, I'm 53. I'm like want to be on TikTok Cause I can't even dance.
Speaker 2:I can't dance.
Speaker 1:Can't go on TikTok. That's exactly what I was saying, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then when I started looking at all of the other content, I thought, okay, what else can I do? And so part of it is education, and so I'm a teacher also.
Speaker 1:I did not know that about you.
Speaker 2:I teach at our university. I teach death investigation.
Speaker 2:Of course you do Of course, one of the things that I have noticed is that our community is driven by education and content. So why can't our content be education, right, and be educational? So it takes me back to what you were saying, where we just conduct death investigations, and that is it. The sole purpose of my life, I think, at the coroner's office is providing education and meeting people where they are. So that means I can't just sit in my office because I'm not educating anybody there, except for my investigators, and they know enough. Right, right. I have to be in the community sharing information about. Here are the number of deaths that we have had based on this type of circumstance. What can we do to prevent these deaths? That is a part of my job and that's the part of the job that I love, because I have to be able to teach this and get the information out.
Speaker 2:So now I'm on TikTok.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking who cares about the corners office?
Speaker 2:But those are the ones that get the most views and it's not anything in a negative way, it's just here's what we need to do to change things, or here's what's happening in our community, because if you don't know, if you're in your own world and you don't know really what's happening in our community, because if you don't know, if you're in your own world and you don't know really what's happening out here, then how can you even be a catalyst for change?
Speaker 2:As you mentioned going into the schools. My friend's having an issue. I can tell her where to go to place her baby or whatever it is she's struggling with, where to get help with substance abuse and all of the things that our entire nation has been going through over the last 10 years. I can be a resource to just tell one person that can tell someone else. And so back to your point of being able to educate. That is key and that is critical to what we all have to continue to do. It's not about you want to be you know, you want to get attention or you want to be in front of the camera. It's about education, and anyone who doesn't understand that, then they need to step aside because they want to be silenced.
Speaker 1:They want you to be silent. That's exactly right. Yeah, you're exactly right. And I'll tell you, the amount of haters that we have is craziness, like like all we're doing is trying to save some babies. You know, keep these babies out of dumpsters and trash cans. How do we have somebody threatening my life because I'm out there doing this and it's just like there is. There is, and linda knows this person. I mean doesn't know this person, but he's attacked her as well. But I, literally my life, has been threatened. I've had multiple police reports. I go to events, a lot of events, near where this person is. I have to have security. Is that bad?
Speaker 2:You know I'm doing saving babies, and I think that that's some mental health. Oh, that's totally yeah, that needs to be, and I think that that's some mental health issues that need to be addressed. You know, even with mental health, we have resources for that right. So even if we're providing education and you have some issues, then let's help you address your mental health issues. That's all I can say.
Speaker 1:Let's talk afterwards. So okay, so Marion County 1600 a year. Okay, do they ever ask you to go outside Marion County and help with another case?
Speaker 2:no, I get corners that call in like hey, I need your help with this case. What would you do so? They're calling, they call me yeah, they call me, but I love it because I love education, so but you've been there 28 years too.
Speaker 1:I mean, they probably all know you you know all throughout Indiana know exactly who you are and that they can count on you, you know because you've done so much. I mean you have to be the biggest county in Indiana. You know so so yeah, I can see where people would would trust.
Speaker 2:So I'm glad that they do, because they will call and say, hey, we've got this situation, what would you do? How would you handle this? Because, again, we conduct the most investigations in the state and so we've had, we've seen a lot. We have seen a lot and so I'm so glad that my colleagues, as coroners, trust my judgment just because we've seen so much.
Speaker 1:So how many of those 1,600 a year are kids?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. I would say nearly 100 are kids, children under the age of 18. And causes of death vary. So some causes of death are bed sharing situations, some causes of death are homicides. Some causes of death are bed sharing situations, some causes of death are homicides, some causes of death are suicides, some are accidents, and so it's a wide variety of those types of death investigations. So we try to use that opportunity to share information with our community about what can we do to prevent these deaths, because to me, 100 is a lot.
Speaker 1:We want to see that decrease. That's a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we want to see that decrease, and especially certain types of investigations that are preventable, for example neglect.
Speaker 2:So, these are not the babies that are left outside, but these are the babies that are in the home, that are being neglected, that I want to reach those families and say you can surrender that baby if you don't want that baby and we've had we've had a couple of those. And so, looking at neglect and having even friends and family understand what the next steps are, it bothered me that over the last year we have had at least four cases of neglect of children, like total neglect, starvation and abuse of children.
Speaker 1:That certainly could have been prevented, and so my question was like are we checking in on the kids? Who's checking in on the kids? Who's?
Speaker 2:checking in and you can anonymously call Child Protective Service or DCS and say, just do a welfare check on this kid. Just do a welfare check If you know that they're not living in conditions that are healthy, trash, bugs, all of those things, if you know that there are resources that will help families get it together and hold families accountable to do that. So maybe I can't go to my sister and say you need to clean up this house. However, if I call DCS and I say can you do a welfare check and check on the kids, dcs can say these are not living conditions. We need to come in and help you do this and do better right and hold you accountable. Those are the things that are bothering me the most. Over just in the last year that I've seen more of just the neglect you know, um, and kids that are not school-age kids, so they're not going into school anywhere, so nobody's seeing them Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, last year the Department of Child Services director contacted me and now when I first started Safe Haven Baby Boxes DCS's director and I were not friends. She did not like me and I did not like her. But through the years they see the advantage of having us and working in this state. And so the Department of Child Services director, which was not the same person, from the beginning contacted us and said Monica, we need to up the age of surrender.
Speaker 1:I was like, okay, like what is your reasoning behind this? And they were seeing those cases where they could not take these children under safe haven because safe haven law before that was 30 days old or younger. And so they said we're having and this is going to blow your mind when I tell you this he said the cases are up 70 percent between 30 days and 60 days. He said the cases are up 70% between 30 days and 60 days. So these kids that are 30 days old or no older than 60 days old at 70% increase in abuse of these kids.
Speaker 2:I believe it, absolutely believe it, and so he's like.
Speaker 1:and then he also said that a lot of these kids that are going into the NICU and they're staying in there for more than 30 days, so now this parent doesn't have an avenue more than 30 days, you know so then? So then now this parent doesn't have an avenue after those 30 days of surrendering legally. And so once he started telling me that, I was like well, yeah, why wouldn't we want to do this? This is, this is crazy. We're not about just newborns, we're. You know, if we can save the life of a 60 day or we we want to save the life of a 60-dayer. And so last legislative session we took it from 30 days up to 60 days, because the Department of Child Services did not want to prosecute these parents. They wanted to give them an opportunity to do the right thing before it got to that point.
Speaker 2:I thought you were going to say up to three, age three.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no, but I would love that.
Speaker 2:Like no, no, no, no, no, but I would love that that would be like a goal up to age three, because those are the ones that have no voice that we are seeing the biggest number of abuse.
Speaker 1:I think we should have, and maybe this is something we can work together. Honest to gosh, because I get it all the time why is there an age limit? Why is there an age limit? Why is there an age limit? You know, three-year-olds, two-year-olds, you know these, these babies that are nice and cute and they're, you know, they sleep all the time.
Speaker 1:Those are easy to take care of unless they're crying a lot, right, but when they get to be two, they're hellions, you know, and it's harder to take care of a two-year-old that is not listening, that you know, and and so I can see where those are the ones that are being abused. But I would love to have some type of program, something out there for older kids, maybe not to be surrendered like that, but for the parents to just say, basically, I can't do it, and maybe sign adoption papers. You know, don't let them just come and drop them off, because these, these kids, are connected to these, these parents, you know, I think we need to, we need need to to be a little bit smarter. I mean the newer than the newborns that we're getting in our boxes, you know, a lot of them still have the placenta still attached. So these they have not connected, you know, bonded with someone you know, outside of the womb yet and so.
Speaker 1:But the three-year-olds have, and so, you know, I was abandoned as an infant and so I did not bond with my adoptive mom and I love her, I absolutely love my mom, but I did not bond with her. But I was abandoned as an infant, placed into foster care, and then my parents got me when I was nine weeks old, and so for nine weeks I don't know who took care of me, and so I think getting these babies, you know, the newborns, into the arms of the people who are going to have them forever, that are going to love them forever, is pivotal for us to get them there.
Speaker 1:But a three-year-old is different, because I've already bonded.
Speaker 2:It is I just, you know, just in conducting our investigations, when we see these age ranges of neglect, I often think.
Speaker 2:when I think about the baby boxes, I'm like, well, it looks big enough to hold a three year old, so they're pulling wires out of the back, and what I did was just kind of ask DCS like do you have any resources for parents that just cannot handle taking care of their you know, 10 month old to one year old, that they're abusing and causing their death. Is there something available Like should we beusing and causing their death? Is there something available Like should we be talking about what's?
Speaker 1:available. Is there anything available?
Speaker 2:There was a thing called respite, but I think that's only like a temporary time frame.
Speaker 1:I think that's up to 30 days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so nothing really significant, Like what are the next steps then If you find that you are just not wanting this child and you cannot take care of this child? What are the next steps? I didn't get an answer for that. I didn't? We need to come up with an answer, we need to figure something out, because I just hate seeing these deaths you know occurring due to neglect, because somebody just didn't want you as a child.
Speaker 1:You know, we had a mom that contacted us that was still pregnant and she wanted to surrender, and we were. You know we go through all our her options parenting plan, adoption plan.
Speaker 1:You know can you hand the child to a person. Baby box is always the last resort option that we always give, because it's safer for a mom to hand the baby to a person. And so, um, we were talking to her about adoption and so we were gonna put her in contact with people for adoption. Her mother got involved and of course, you know you don't have to do this, let's, we'll help you. She called us back when this child was two and couldn't do it anymore, because her mother said that she was going to help, you know, at the get go at the beginning.
Speaker 1:And now this child is two and she's not helping anymore, and so now she wanted to surrender the child under the Safe Haven Act. And we're like you can't now, and so I wish parents would step aside and let their children make the decision that's best for them, not what's best for the parents, because the parents, of course they want that that's best for them, not what's best for the parents, because the parents, of course they want what's best for their children. But when they get involved like that, unless you're going to be there for 18 years, don't make promises you can't keep, yeah and that's the sad part.
Speaker 2:That is exactly. I think we get that a lot, I think that happens a lot yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's sad for us though, because she was going to put this child up for adoption and now this two-year-old you know, I mean, and I think she we were trying to get her in contact with an adoption agency that would take the two-year-old you know, so that she could place this child. I don't know I'd have to talk to my counselor, find out if she actually ever went through with it, but it's like what, what's how? How healthy is this child now, how you know is? Is there neglect going, you know? It's like, is she a good mom? Is she? Did she try and?
Speaker 1:you just don't know you know the fact that she called back, though.
Speaker 1:We actually get a lot of people. You'd be surprised at how many moms contact us I'm not even kidding. So after a baby is surrendered, you will always see me going on the news. And it's not to get the publicity for myself, like some of our haters say. It is to thank the mother. It is to tell the public that the fire station or the hospital did exactly what they were designed to do or what they were trained to do, and then the box worked exactly as it was designed and it's available for anyone to utilize. It's like another education arm being out there again, and so after those calls or after those press conferences, we get the calls. These mothers are texting me or messaging me on TikTok, instagram, facebook, and they don't want to talk to my staff. It's funny. They always say I want to talk to Monica, and so there was one at 11 o'clock at night Instagram. She sent a message through Instagram. This was actually one of our our Indianapolis babies, so one of the ones that were around there. She contacted us and um got, went into our counseling program and it was all because she watched me, thank her on the news and said if you need anything, you call me. I am here for you and they're trusting us and I think that's so important that they have somebody that has their back. Um, I have.
Speaker 1:I almost went to jail for a mom, like that's a whole nother story in itself. I got subpoenaed four times but I protected her and um, but she and she knew all this. Um, this was a case where we had stayed in contact and she knew that I was. I was going to court and they wanted me to name her, and if I would have named her, it would have been devastating to the safe Haven movement. Named her, it would have been devastating to the safe haven movement. Oh yeah, you know, and so just the fact that any first responder would have never been trusted again if.
Speaker 1:I would have given her name, and so I didn't actually pled the fifth on this case. Yeah, it was a mess. It was an absolute mess. I've actually talked about it a few times publicly and I think that's the best thing because you then remain trusted.
Speaker 2:Right, because if you start naming names and then you know who's gonna trust you, right, then then the whole purpose is done, because it's like, well, I can't really trust them because they might name me.
Speaker 1:You know you do the absolute right thing, yeah well, I was Martin Luther King in it, though I was gonna go to jail. I was like I'm not it, though I was going to go to jail. I was like I'm not naming her, I don't care what you got to do, but keep me out of jail. I was telling my lawyer this because we had to hire a lawyer. I spent $11,000 defending this mother's right to remain anonymous, and to this day, no one knows who she is but me. Yeah, bless you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, bless you.
Speaker 1:I don't know how well I'd do in jail, though, alfie. I really don't. I'm kind of high maintenance, well, and I don't know if I can do bologna sandwiches. I just oh yeah. I'd probably lose some weight in there, though, but you did the right thing.
Speaker 2:I think so. I think you were protected because you did the right thing. I think that's the trust in the work that you do and with those boxes, I think. You know a lot of times people don't trust. So I think that's what it comes back to is you can trust that you can do this Right and that no one's going to call you out or talk down to you or about you and no one's going to name you.
Speaker 1:Isn't that in the law, though? I mean, yeah, for them to not publicly, or it's confidentiality, anonymity, but yeah, they don't, so how?
Speaker 2:I guess I don't understand. How would you be, you know, required to go against the law?
Speaker 1:Well, actually the law is what pretty much saved me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it says any person who, in good faith that voluntarily leaves a child with an emergency medical services provider is not obligated to disclose the person's name or the parent's name. And so that line alone is what we hung our hats on when we went to court. And that is the line that saved me, because they were like, well, were you a fight Cause? At the time I was a medic still. And they were like, well, were you working as a medic or were you the baby box lady?
Speaker 1:And this was a case where I actually was handed this infant at my firehouse and so and I was like, well, it doesn't matter, because it says any person who, in good faith, that could be me as a firefighter, that could be me as a medic, that could be me as just her friend, you know, and so that, literally, is what saved me, and that's why, when we go around to states and we change laws and states, it's very important that the wording is correct, because we want to protect our first responders, but we also want to protect mom and baby, and so, yeah, so we, we really take a lot of time when, when legislation comes up, to try to make sure that everyone can be protected. Yeah, um, which is just important, yeah, so well, I'm gonna ask you one more question and you don't have to answer it if you know, but you probably know what I'm gonna ask, I don't. So we've, uh, what can you tell us? And I know that this is just such so new, I mean, it was what?
Speaker 1:Eight days ago, we found a dead infant in indian Indianapolis, and my heart literally sank as soon as I, as soon as I heard this, and I was just devastated. I was like it's been 11 years, 11 years that we have not had this. And how is this happening? And did we let our guard down? Did we not reach her? And so what? What can you tell us, with the investigation still going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know when we were called to this scene. One of the things that we do during the course of our investigation is, you know, the examination that becomes critical.
Speaker 2:Like the body becomes the evidence. So it's body of evidence. One of the things that you know we look for is was the baby born alive? One of the things that we look for is was the baby born alive, which makes the baby an infant. If it took a breath, or was the baby born already deceased or did it die in utero, then it makes the baby a fetus. So part of my education on TikTok has been, you know, trying to explain that. So was it an infant born alive or was it a fetus that was born?
Speaker 2:So there are still multiple tests that we can do to try to determine that. We also look to see if there's any trauma or injury. Trauma or injury Trauma, meaning you know, sometimes it's difficult to look at a infant or a fetus to determine minimal trauma. So, for example, an infant could be suffocated with minimal trauma, right, if there was any physical external trauma, we look at that blunt force trauma injury. So what I can say is that there was no blunt force trauma injury.
Speaker 2:We're still looking at certain parts of the examination which will require histology, toxicology to look at was the baby possibly born alive and then left? Did the baby take a breath? That would give any indication. That is more difficult to determine if the baby took a breath because there's nothing that gives, there's no sort of scientific test that can say that a breath was taken but then maybe another breath was not. So we don't have a way to look at that or determine if a breath was actually taken. We try to give an estimation of the age, the gestational age, so how far along in utero was the infant or fetus in utero was the infant or fetus? We have determined that it is likely less than 30 weeks, which is still pretty premature If a person were to have a baby at 30 weeks.
Speaker 2:There could be some challenges right.
Speaker 2:Some abnormalities to the baby that would potentially not let the baby live. So just, you know, the whole ability to breathe, the development of the lungs, that is all going to impact at that early gestational age if the baby could have survived outside of the uterus after being born, and so this is a sort of a tricky type of case. So we've conducted other investigations that were similar but born in a residence right, where an infant or fetus was delivered in a residence and still could not determine if it was an infant born with breath or without right. So so many complications and challenges to these type of cases, but with this one we're still looking at that. That's still no.
Speaker 2:A few weeks out we can say again the the biggest thing was that there was no trauma to the baby, and so our next steps are we're going to kind of get through these testing to look at maybe how long the baby had been there by looking at. We look at insect activity to see, okay, well, how long if there's fly larvae or what the age of the larvae was, any deceased flies or dead flies in near or around the baby. So we try to look at maybe how long the baby had been there, but we're looking at that too. So there's still a lot that we are doing in terms of that particular investigation to determine a lot of things, but what we can say which I was glad to hear that there was no trauma, because we could have potentially seen trauma in terms of, you know, injury to the head or to any other part of the body, but we didn't see that, and so now it's just down to okay, what else can we do to determine the age, to determine if the baby took a breath, if there was anything that would give us any indication? More than likely, as of right now it's pending, but without all of those other details.
Speaker 2:We don't have a cause or a manner of death and in those kind of cases, if there's nothing congenital, so if there was a defect of the heart, if there was, we know that the lungs were already underdeveloped because it was just at about 30 weeks, possibly gestation. So without any of that, we cannot even say if the baby would have survived, right, right, and then, in that case, then we, you know what else, what can we call this then? We, you know what else? What can we call this? Was it neglect or was it just? You know someone asked me what law would hold that mother accountable for leaving the baby, and I couldn't think of anything other than you know leaving a body, you know leaving the scene of a body or transporting or you know.
Speaker 2:We really don't know if it was delivered at that location or if it was brought to that location.
Speaker 2:So, again, part of the investigation, you know, was still ongoing with regard to that. But what we do also know is that we are going to give this baby dignity right. We are going to make sure that this baby is buried, is given a name, and we do that with our partnership with Linda Linda Zanacco, and he knows your name, and at the time that this occurred, I didn't even know that it was happening because I was finishing some other stuff and I started getting calls and the first person was Linda.
Speaker 1:I called her and I was like we got to be on this Like sometimes the media knows way before I do I actually somebody on? Tiktok messaged me and said hey, have you seen this? It just came out and I'm like, oh my God, Keep up with the media.
Speaker 2:I'm like I got other stuff to do. I can't keep up with them, right. But my staff didn't know even at the time that what they were going out to. They didn't know, they just we just didn't know even at the time that what they were going out to. They didn't know they just we just didn't have any details, right. So, um, with what we do know in our partnership, which is so incredible, like I can't speak enough to the partnership that we have with he knows your name and the Marion County Coroner's Office and you know the story from 15 plus years ago and how we came together we will do it again. We will take care of this baby and give the final resting place with dignity and respect, because that is deserved. And again, I talk about these infants and children being defenseless and I think this is very honorable what we can do to give the baby a name. Now, I usually don't have anything with naming a baby.
Speaker 1:Well, you did, baby Amelia. You named her middle name Grace.
Speaker 2:Well, you know that was. I have a difficult time coming up with that stuff. And you know, linda's like what do you think I'm like? I don't know, whatever, whatever you want. You know that was. I have a difficult time coming up with that stuff. And you know Linda's like what do you think I'm like?
Speaker 1:I don't know, whatever, whatever you want, you know Because you named her middle name Grace and I named her last name, hope.
Speaker 2:Oh, and so I have a difficult time with that. So I don't know what we're going to do with this one Can you tell us was it a boy or a girl? A girl it was. Tell us it was a boy or girl? A girl it was. Yes, we have identified that it was a female, female baby. So hopefully, within the next I would say probably two weeks, once we make sure we have everything we need yeah then we can lay the baby to rest and we will give the baby a beautiful name.
Speaker 2:as you know, we've done in the past. Yes, I'll take the middle name again. Hopefully Linda will let me take the last and we can do this, and I think that's the positive out of this right.
Speaker 2:You talked about. There's so much bad in a lot of what we see and what we do and, yes, this was something that was negative and something that um really impacted a lot of people, um, but I think, at the end of the day, if we can let people know that this baby does have a final resting place, right, I think that'll be like our tiktoks are gonna blow up. I know, right, just showing this, just making sure that people know, and then also having that other message behind it that these boxes are available. That is going to be critical in whatever message we have with regard to this particular case is that these boxes are available, right, right, and one day they'll be available for two-year-olds. But, yeah, so the investigation is ongoing.
Speaker 1:We're going to have to go back to the drawing board for that one.
Speaker 2:No, this investigation is ongoing and we're going to try to get to some final answers here within. So it takes about 12 weeks, so a couple more months, I would say we should have some information.
Speaker 1:Well, since you were talking about this, something else came up and popped in my mind. So we have a case that is in a different state, where the baby was 32 weeks gestation and we're finding out and this was months ago that this actually happened. But we're finding out because the mother's been allocated and she had taken the abortion drug misoprostol at 32 weeks gestation and then this baby was born deceased and thrown in a dumpster, and so are you seeing any of that.
Speaker 2:You know what Part of our investigations we ask a lot of questions. That has not come up that anyone has um delivered a fetus as a result of taking the drug. The drug um, we ask those, we ask those questions, but that hasn't been part of what has come out of any of our investigations as a result of someone delivering a fetus rather at home, or mostly at home, and then they, they go to the hospital we were.
Speaker 1:As soon as we heard this, we were like she's lucky to be alive. That's very interesting. It's like what in the world you know and we are finding. You know a lot of these cases that babies are being thrown in dumpsters are found in trash cans.
Speaker 2:They are 30, 32, you know well, that brings me to when you said that now I'm thinking like can in talk in our toxicology? Can? We should be able to yeah, you should be, because it's not a routine part of our panel well, of course, yeah so now you just added to my investigation you're gonna have to see if we can test for that and see if anything comes out of um, that toxicology screen that maybe represents that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, because I didn't know at what, how long you know, during the duration of pregnancy, that you could take that drug? I?
Speaker 1:think it's only up to nine weeks, and so somebody taking it at 32 weeks she could have died. This is dangerous, but these women are getting these drugs through the mail and so they're probably just typing in whatever they want, you know, not giving accurate information, and these drugs are being sent to them and they're just taking them blindly, and so they are giving birth to babies that are no longer alive. And you know, it's like what do you do with a 32 weeker? Wow, you know. Do you call the hospital, do you? Where do you take this child? And so this baby that was thrown in a dumpster. We had never thought of this before, and when this came up, we're like is this a thing? Is this really?
Speaker 2:happening. That's interesting, because what happens when you deliver a fetus? What are the next steps?
Speaker 1:What are you supposed to do? Do you just?
Speaker 2:throw it in the trash and say, well, I delivered a dead baby and who's taking charge of that?
Speaker 1:Who in the trash and say, well, I delivered a dead baby, well, and who's taking charge of that? Like, who's telling these moms what they should be doing? Yeah, you know, but this case, you know, we're just, we were. It blew our minds Because this woman is lucky to be alive.
Speaker 2:Literally lucky to be alive. That brings me to the next thing that I'm going to do when I go back to work is oh, we need to test for this, just to see. Yeah, let me know, just to see, because we won't have them. No, we won't have anything from the mother.
Speaker 1:No, well, thank you, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:This was so enjoyable.
Speaker 1:I've been wanting to interview you for so long. Oh wow, you do such amazing work down there with Linda and she talks so highly of you. Thank you and and you know you, being able to love on these babies for the moments that they're in your arms just gives me peace knowing that they're at least being loved.
Speaker 2:Oh, our staff is amazing. Like our staff, we are very careful to make sure that we take care of all of the babies and the kids that come into our office, but it's about giving dignity and respect to everyone. Who is a coroner's case in my office? So, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for coming. Thank you for driving up. Yeah, it was fun. Well, this is Monica Kelsey, from Beyond the Box, in the studio with the Marion County Coroner Alfie, and I hope you guys just learned a heck of a lot, like I did. Anyways, if you guys would like to support our ministry, go to shbborg and make a donation today. God bless you guys.