Beyond the Box
Beyond the Box with Monica Kelsey is a powerful podcast dedicated to raising awareness, educating the public, and advocating for change in the fight against infant abandonment. Hosted by Monica Kelsey, Founder and CEO of Safe Haven Baby Boxes, this podcast dives deep into real stories, expert insights, and the life-saving impact of Safe Haven laws and baby box programs across the country.
Each episode features compelling conversations with firefighters, legal experts, healthcare professionals, policymakers, adoptive families, and even mothers who have used Safe Haven Baby Boxes. Together, they shed light on the challenges, victories, and ongoing efforts to provide safe, legal, and anonymous surrender options for parents in crisis.
From heartwarming rescue stories to policy discussions shaping the future, Beyond the Box is a must-listen for anyone passionate about saving lives and supporting vulnerable infants.
Beyond the Box
Expanding Safe Haven: From Laws To Life-Saving Devices
Two infants a year might sound small—until you’re the coroner who sees what happens when a parent has nowhere safe to turn. We invited Chief Deputy Coroner Riley Hoff from Douglas County, Washington, to explore why well-intended Safe Haven laws still miss families in crisis and how a simple extension—24/7 anonymous infant safety devices—can turn fear into a safe handoff and a second chance.
We unpack the real constraints on the ground: the 72-hour window, the requirement to face staff at limited locations, and the stigma that keeps parents from walking through a busy door in a town where everyone knows everyone. Riley brings a public health lens shaped by death investigations, touching on the pressures of addiction, homelessness, and mental health that complicate perinatal decisions. We contrast Washington’s experience with Indiana’s results, where secure, alarmed baby boxes linked to first responders have correlated with zero fatal abandonments due to abandonment and a growing number of safe surrenders. The point isn’t replacing people—it’s protecting privacy at the crucial moment when a parent needs an anonymous, immediate option.
Together we outline a pragmatic roadmap: authorize infant safety devices within the existing Safe Haven framework; set clear standards for installation, alarms, and response; and fund a statewide education push so parents, hospitals, shelters, and schools know the law. We also talk about compassion over judgment—why prosecuting a mother who leaves a newborn safely in a hospital can drive others away from care, and how hotlines and counselors can support without steering the decision. If you care about maternal and infant health, harm reduction, and practical policy, this conversation offers data, lived experience, and a plan to save lives—one quiet door at a time.
If this resonated, follow the show, share with a friend, and leave a review with your take on how Washington should modernize Safe Haven access. Your voice helps move policymakers and protects the next newborn who needs a safe start.
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This is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box. I am in the studio today, but we are doing a Zoom podcast with Riley Hoff, who's the chief deputy coroner of Douglas County in Washington State. And I am so excited to interview her. Thank you for joining us and welcome to the show, Riley. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Well, I'm excited because I've I you know we've been trying to get this for the last couple of months kind of set up our schedules, and it's just been you have been extremely busy. I'm on the road all the time. And so finally we were able to connect, and I'm just excited to kind of get to know you and and get to know your passion because we have a lot in common of what we work for, and I think our our listeners are really going to uh I think they're gonna see common ground here for sure. So for people who don't know who you are, uh so tell us a little bit about uh who Riley Hall is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I am, as Monica said, I am the Chief Deputy Coroner here in Douglas, County, Washington. Um we are located on the eastern side of the Cascade, so kind of smack dab in the middle of the state. Um I've been doing this for about a year and a half now. Um I absolutely love it. Um, I work in a great place for a great office and you know for a great profession, really. Um and prior to this, so I was working on my master's at the University of North Alabama in criminal justice, and I actually got into this field because my thesis was titled A Comparative Analysis of the Quality of Homicide Evidence Provided to Law Enforcement by the coroner versus medical examiner system. Um, and I spent about a year working on that, and I got very interested kind of in the field of death investigations, um, which was kind of spawned by my bachelor's degree, which is in crime scene investigation. So I was kind of in a spot of where I wasn't quite sure in which direction I wanted to go after graduation, but my thesis kind of guided me um towards this field, and um I've I've really enjoyed it. The people that I work with are phenomenal all across the board, whether it's you know law enforcement, um, fire, EMS, other death investigators across the state and the country. It just everybody has a real passion for what they do, and it's you know it's really inspiring to see that. And I'm very thankful to be where I'm at right now, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's interesting because um so I went to after high school, uh, I went I started in college. I went to college at the University of Cincinnati, and I actually I actually studied criminal justice. Oh wow, okay. Yeah, and so that was that I that has been a huge passion of mine for a long time, but uh going into college right after high school in 1992, um I partied way too much. And so I actually left college and joined the United States military and then spent eight years in the military. And so uh but I do have a passion for criminal justice. I there there's so much with that that you can just you you can kind of incorporate into your life and different avenues. My daughter now is trying to get into the University of Cincinnati's law program. So uh yeah, so it's super cool. So that that that kind of excites me when you tell me that you know you it's it well and Alabama. I mean, we're working really hard in Alabama right now as well. So that's awesome. So, you know, you contacted us in I think it was April, Jesse had said, and was there a reason why you reached out to us, or was this just something that you were trying to put together? Um, for because Washington State has a safe haven law, but they don't have baby boxes. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So we knew we are a safe haven state. Um, I believe we have been one um for quite some time now, early 2000s, I believe, is when the law went into effect. Um, this wasn't necessarily something that I was even aware of at the beginning, where you know, safe haven laws, you know, they're different than the safe haven boxes, obviously, and it's something that has to be an expansion of it. Um but I was actually at an autopsy one day and I was speaking with some law enforcement officers, and they had just kind of mentioned, you know, that they had heard of other states that were using these devices, and you know, it might be something that would be useful to have in Washington state. Or I think they actually at the time weren't aware that our safe haven law doesn't encompass them, so they were more so getting to the point of, oh well, why don't we have one in the state? But I don't think in our conversation anybody involved in that conversation knew that our safe haven law did not extend to the the infant safety devices. So when I reached out to you guys and Jace uh excuse me, Jesse was actually the one that said, Oh, well, actually, um, yeah, they're not legal in the state, so there's a little bit of a hurdle, obviously, of trying to see if you could get one, you know, installed in the state. And um, so when I looked up the safe haven law, I was like, oh, well, it would actually potentially be quite an easy fix because the law's already in place, so you would just have to, you know, extend it, which is easier said than done. But I think in the grand scheme of you know public health, it's just basically another option for both mothers and babies for a law that's already been in place for over 20 years at this point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, and it has been around. So the first law actually passed in 1999, and every state passed since then. Texas was the very first state to actually pass the Safe Haven Law, but every state has been successful in passing the safe haven law where a parent can walk into any hospital uh in America and and basically hand their child to a person, turn around and walk away, no questions asked. The box, of course, is an extension of that law, allowing for parents to do this anonymously. And what we've been finding throughout the country is that babies are being left at the doors of safe haven locations, whether they're not there or they don't want to face anyone. And so having the box and the technology that is out there today, you know, we've taken the the tech the technology and made it into a device that can now save these kids from being left on the ground at these safe haven locations. And so there is still a lot to do though with the safe haven law. There's a lot to do with education and awareness. You know, when you were going to college, did anybody teach you about the safe haven law? I mean, when did you first realize that there was a law out there that you that you could do this?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I guess really when I started doing research about the baby boxes, I didn't realize that you know it was encompassed under um, I guess, necessarily safe haven law. I know there were certain states where, you know, mothers did have that option to relinquish their their infants, but I didn't really understand the extent of it. I feel like it's not something that's really, and which of course I'm not law enforcement, so that's kind of a different side with that. Um, but I I don't think it's something that's really commonly discussed. I think it's kind of one of those laws where, you know, if you do know about it, you know about it. If you don't, then you're really probably not gonna hear a whole lot about it. Um I think, and you know, as you were saying, it is well, it is good that it's in place. It is, you know, the current law is that you have to go into a hospital or a fire station or a clinic during business hours, um, and there has to be a staff there. And right now in Washington State, it's a 72-hour window, which is pretty small. And I know a lot of the research and concerns out there are regarding small communities and you know, rural areas where you know there may not be a clinic that's fully staffed or open past a certain point, or you know, the stigma of running into somebody that you know, or you may know the nurse or the doctor on staff. So I think there's um you know, quite like you said, there's quite a bit of work that can be done to really, you know, make this effective for every demographic and population size and people that are involved with it. It's not you know a one-size-fits-all kind of scenario, regardless of you know, the law that's in place. You know, every mother, every baby, parent, whomever has their own unique circumstances and story. So it's um, you know, again, this would be something that could potentially benefit you know one individual uh more so than another, and again, it's just another option that's there to benefit public health and the general public of the state.
SPEAKER_00:So, so how many, I mean, in in Douglas County, have you guys had any abandonments in the last let's just say five years?
SPEAKER_01:In terms of um live abandonment, I'm not quite sure on that. Um I I don't work for CPS, so that's kind of on their end as well as you know, fire EMS in the hospital. Thankfully, we haven't had any fatal abandonments, uh, which is where I would come in if there was unfortunately, you know, uh a neonate or even you know a an infant that was carried a full term that was abandoned and was found deceased. That's where we would kind of step in and take over our case. Um, so we're thankful for that. But in terms of, you know, I don't have access to data from the hospitals or CPS that's all confidential. But um I do know, I believe in Washington State, I did write the number down. Um I think I believe from 2002, um, which is when the current Safe Haven law was revised and drafted for Washington State, there have been 57 infants that have been relinquished under the Safe Haven Law, which is obviously great. And then um surprisingly, I believe from the numbers that I have, 43 of these were between 2009 and 2016. So when you think of 2002 to you know, presently, that's a quite a you know small window for a majority of infants to be relinquished. Um, and then data can be a little skewed and it can be hard to track down depending on what's being reported. But from what I was able to find, about 16 infants have been illegally abandoned in Washington State since 2015. So that's you know still, you know, a question comes into play as to why, if there is a safe haven law, you know, why wasn't the you know baby legally relinquished? It could have been with out you know, outside of the 72-hour window, or again it could have been you know the stigma or the embarrassment, the shame, whatever you will, um, as to why those infants were legally abandoned that relinquished uh without any sort of criminal prosecution.
SPEAKER_00:You said how many were illegally abandoned? So it's 2015. So that's about two a year. Right. So two years, you know, in Indiana, when I first launched baby boxes, you know, this had never been done in American history before. And so in Indiana, we were finding two to three dead babies in our state every year, and that was just common for us, and people were not even concerned about it. And I thought, you know, if I could just save two babies a year in Indiana, wouldn't that just be worth it? I mean, it would be everything to the two lives that are being lost. Right. And so I launched baby boxes in 2016 at a fire station, at my fire station. I'm a retired firefighter medic, and I launched at my fire station in Woodburne, Indiana, and um we have not had a dead infant in our state from abandonment since I launched the first baby box in the state of Indiana, and we've had a record number of babies in our boxes. And so when you work the program, the program really works, and people might say, Well, that's only two babies a year in Washington. Why are we gonna spend all this money to put baby boxes in a state when it's really only two lives a year? Maybe we can just tweak a few things. Well, you've been trying to tweak three tweak things for 25 years, and how is this working for us? You know, um, and so uh I look at that as, you know, like, okay, let's do it. You know, let's let's work on these two lives. Even if we can save one of the two, it's still worth it for me. You know, because I get asked all the time, why am I going around spending thousands and thousands of dollars putting boxes in buildings when there's already a safe haven law in the books? And this is why, because those two lives deserve to be protected. You know, we should be fighting for them. Um, and in in all lives, we we really should. Now, with your job, do you see, I mean, not and not even so much abandonment. I mean, I know abandonment across this country, we deal with a lot of coroners and and uh people that are being able to hold the babies that are being left that have died from abandonment. But in your case, you know, you've been pretty lucky in Douglas County of not having to have that happen. But I'm sure you see a lot of tragedy though.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yes, not, I guess I wouldn't say necessarily with you know, specifically just infants or babies. You know, our job is to respond to all unattended deaths in the county, which is essentially um anything that's not under an attending physician in the hospital or hospice. But you know, that that can include overdoses, you know, traffic accidents, um, you know, any really any sort of accident, homicides, suicides, um, and things like that. And I think even at a state level, I know there has been a concern with the opioid epidemic and an increase in homelessness. Uh, I believe that since from 2023 to 2024, homelessness in the state has increased 12.5%, um, which is a pretty high jump. And then I know we are at a statewide level, I believe that fatal opioid overdoses in total are kind of on a downward trend, but certain counties um are seeing it uh actually an increase in overdoses just depending on where you live. Um, for example, in my county we are seeing an increase in overdoses, and I think even um again with some other state data, I think there's been roughly um in 2024 from 2023, there was about a 600% increase in accidental overdoses in children. Um that's another thing, you know, that you have to consider. Um, you know, when you I guess discuss the overall topic of public health and public safety, you know, not everything's black and white, and you do have children that are in situations that are not ideal. Um they can be abused, you know, even murdered, you have these accidental overdoses, which could be from they could be purely accidental, it could be from a lack of education or just you know, a bad home situation. Um, and then you even have unfortunately, you know, child suicides, which are influenced, you know, by school life, home life. Um, it's really there this field is very gray, there's not a black and white for everything. And as I was saying earlier, everyone's circumstances are very uh unique, and it's there's not anything that can just be tailored to one specific person or situation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, we're we're actually dealing with a case out of Mobile, Alabama, right now. And I know when when viewers watch this podcast, it's gonna be a couple of weeks before people get to see it. But you know, today uh one of the moms that actually went into a hospital and gave birth to a child, uh, she left and she's being charged with abandonment and also chemical um dependency or uh chemical endangerment of a child. And you know, I go back to kind of what you're saying with the drug addiction that is happening across this country, that is one big problem in itself. Um, and then when we compact it with a mom being pregnant, um, if if we're if we're prosecuting these parents for going into hospitals that that are going to have a child that's got drugs in their systems, what we're doing is we're basically saying that you're not protected here. And so we're gonna prosecute. And so we're we're kind of dealing with it on that side also, um, not just the homelessness and the drug addiction and stuff that's happening all over this country, but there's another layer to it that I don't think people truly understand. Um, that we can't, you know, this can't be a blanket, you know, case for every mom, you know, um, because what's gonna happen is these moms are not gonna go to hospitals anymore and give birth safely. And then we're gonna find more babies in dumpsters and trash cans, which is what we're trying to avoid. And I always say that it's is it an ideal situation? No, it's not, you know, it's not ideal at all. But we have to do the best with what we have. And uh unfortunately, prosecuting a mother for chemical dependency uh or chemical endangerment of a child uh is not helping her and it's not helping this child, you know. Let's get this mom some rehab, let's get this mom some help, uh, you know, and I don't know, put her in a program, you know, where she's she's gotta get the help, you know. I or or face charges. I don't know, but I but what I do know is that prosecuting a mother that goes into a hospital and gives birth and leaves a baby safe in a hospital should never be charged with abandonment. Um but you and how far are you from Seattle?
SPEAKER_01:Um about two, two and a half hours. So we're the geographical center of the state, so about two, two and a half hours from Seattle, about two, two and a half from Spokane. It's from So Spokane. Which are our largest cities in the state.
SPEAKER_00:Now, do you know any of the stats for Seattle or um the actual the just the cities, Spokane or Seattle, on infant abandonment, or do you guys talk to each other? I mean, I'm sure coroners talk to each other.
SPEAKER_01:I don't have any of their specific data. When I do get data, it's kind of at a state level, just so there is no you know, skewing of numbers or uh, you know, I guess essentially placing the blame on one specific area in the state, it's just kind of all blanketed underneath um the state data that the epidemiologists kind of go through and create their um numbers.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and when you decided to contact us, was there a specific case that you were working, or you were just curious about adding this resource to the state of Washington?
SPEAKER_01:I was just curious, actually. Um, unfortunately, in our job, there's really not a lot of preventative things that we get to be involved in that really have a positive impact on the community. You know, we kind of appear after the fact in the worst case scenario. So this was kind of a project where um, like I said, for public safety, public health, I think it's just something that could genuine or excuse me, generally benefit the people of you know Washington as an expansion to the law that's already in place.
SPEAKER_00:So is your intention then to start pushing lawmakers?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I've I've been talking with a couple. I know there has been um proposals in the past. I don't think they did too well. I think there was maybe some um, you know, all the details weren't quite there. Maybe the way that it was proposed um just didn't fare well with some of the lawmakers, but I don't think anybody's necessarily against it. I think it's just more so kind of getting it ironed out to where it would fit pretty well with the current law that's in place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I and it always floors me too when people are against the baby boxes. It's like if you're against the baby boxes, you're against the safe haven law. Okay. You know, it it's like it's it's like one in one in one. And most states, you know, in Washington's no different, you know, most states will look at it and they'll just kind of like, without doing a ton of research, just throw it out there and see what sticks. And it doesn't stick right away because people are like, wait a minute, hang on a second. What do you mean we're putting babies in boxes? Like, what? You know, because this still isn't in every state, and not everyone has heard about the baby box program. And so for lawmakers to to just kind of throw it out there and not really do their homework, you know, um, it doesn't a lot of times it doesn't stick the first time, but usually states then pick it back up and pick it back up, and finally then it passes, and and then we're able to come into these states and and save the lives of these kids that were other otherwise being discarded. Um, you know, yesterday morning uh we had a baby in one of our boxes in this one of the southern states. And it never gets old getting these calls from these locations, you know, knowing that we've provided a parent an option that they felt was best for themselves. You know, we we never tell a parent what to do. We never, you know, we're not gonna tell her what's best for her, we're we're not gonna tell her what we would do. You know, when a parent contacts us that wants information on safe haven, we're going to give her the law, we're gonna let her know what resources are available in her area, and then we're gonna walk alongside her after she chooses because this is us, this has to be something that she chooses. We can't choose this for her, we can't tell her what's best for her because we don't, we we're not gonna live that life. You know, she's the one that's gonna have to live with this decision for the rest of her life. And I think that's why Safe Haven Baby Boxes has such a positive narrative out there because we are changing the narrative and working with these moms. You know, um, it really frustrates me when people give their opinion. Because, you know, this might not be something that I would do, and this might not be something that you would do, but we can't give an opinion on what we would do because we're not in the situation that we're talking to this parent about. And so um it always floors me when people say, you know, oh, I would never do that, or you should think about the, you know, it's like, come on, let her make her decision and let her do what's best for her. And then, you know, she'll make the best decision for her and her baby. And and I, you know, I I I appreciate our counselors. I am not a counselor by any means when I get when I I would not be good as a counselor. I wouldn't want to sit there and I would just want to like rip rip rip rip rip, you know, just talk forever. And and so being a counselor, I appreciate the counselors that are able to take themselves out of the situation and just focus on the person and and what you know what they can do, um, you know, just navigating their feelings, not the per not the the counselor's feelings, you know. You know, we get a lot of moms that call our hotline, and then we get a lot of moms that use our boxes and then call our hotline. And I I love that about Safe Haven baby boxes, about how these women are trusting us because we do have their backs, you know, and and uh and I think it's so important. Um so what's next for are you are you gonna stay in Mar? I mean because you're clearly not from Washington State. Are you around? I'm from Florida originally, so very far from home, yes. Where where were you originally? Florida. Oh, so you've been like bouncing all over, yes, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Which I tell people, so I was raised in an Air Force brat, so I I just I guess I'm nomadic um, you know, by nature, I'm used to it. But I really enjoy Washington. Um, everybody here has been great. Like I said, it's very different than Florida, but it's phenomenal. And if you're a huge outdoorsy person, there's really no better place to be.
SPEAKER_00:So what's the best place to go in Spokane? Like hiking? Um yeah, so I'm gonna be out there in two weeks.
SPEAKER_01:Um the Peloose area is very pretty.
SPEAKER_00:Pelouse?
SPEAKER_01:Palouse, yeah. It's north of um Spokane, and then even if you cross over into Court Alain into Idaho, it's very pretty. Um the whole general area around there is very pretty. There's lots of things to do out there, so it's a nice spot.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna give it a shot. Um I've got one full day of nothing planned. Uh so I'm gonna plan something big. Uh, and I'm I've been trying to ask around what do I need to see? Because you know, I did you know, doing this job, I I love my job, don't get me wrong. I love my job, but it's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. So when I get one day and I'm away from home and I'm someplace I've never been, it's it's the time for me to kind of get out and and see, you know, the the country. And so I'm gonna check out this uh north of Spokane, this Paulis. Um hopefully uh hopefully it's not raining that day. Does it rain there a lot?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I would say not this time of year. We're kind of in our drier season, so on this side of the Cascades, it's a lot drier than what you would see kind of in Seattle. They get most of the rain. Um Spokane can get some, but it's not like what you think of in like typical, you know, Washington where they say it's just constantly raining. We're in pretty good weather right now. It'll be probably warm in the upper 90s, even in the hundreds, we're kind of getting there. Uh, but I think you'll be good because it's it's a dry heat, is what I tell people. So compare it to Florida where it's super humid.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Riley, thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me for a few moments and just kind of letting us know your heart there in Washington State, and hopefully within the next few years, we'll be able to come to Washington State and help save these two babies that are being abandoned in this state every single year. Uh, that is always our goal is to save the lives of these kids uh one baby box at a time. So I appreciate you for coming on Beyond the Box. Yeah, thank you for having me. Well, this is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box uh with uh Riley Hall, the Chief Deputy Coroner of Douglas County, Washington, um, giving her insight on uh Washington State and the great work that she's doing out there. So God bless you guys, and we'll see you guys next time on Beyond the Box.