A Night Of Donuts, Death, And Duty

A midnight pager goes off, and what sounds like a standard “rollover, party pinned” call turns into every parent’s nightmare. On the way to the scene, I answer my phone and hear my son JJ screaming for help, and suddenly I am not just a medic responding to an emergency. I am a mom racing into the dark, trying to hold it together while my family’s world collapses in real time. 

We tell the full story of May 26, 2016: the graduation bonfire, the decision to go back for a forgotten phone, the donut in a field, and the Jeep flipping with JJ’s best friend Casey pinned underneath. We talk through what it looks like when first responders work a scene involving people they love, from setting up access in a confusing field to CPR, a helicopter landing zone, and the moment time of death is called. We also face the immediate aftermath, including protocol, handcuffs, and the hospital, plus the brutal weight of “He’s dead, and it’s my fault.” 

Then we zoom out to the part that rarely gets said out loud: first responder PTSD, cumulative trauma, flashbacks that hide in small triggers, and a fire service culture that too often replaces real mental health support with silence. We share what helped, what didn’t, how our family tried to survive the prison years, and why healing is not a finish line but a daily practice. If this story hits you, please subscribe, share the episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more families and first responders can find this conversation.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Story Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:08

This is Monica Kelsey from Beyond the Box. We're in the studio today with a little bit of a different story that you might not have heard or you might have heard. You might have been following us for a really long time and know that there was an accident that happened back in 2016 that changed the course of our lives. And so tonight we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about JJ's story. So buckle up. With me tonight is Larry. He was a firefighter on the Woodburn Fire Department for 25 years. And then my husband, Mayor Joe, who was also on scene that night after we declared Casey dead. So that's a little bit of history about who we are. So welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Thank you for having it.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I know you guys didn't have any choice in this. You guys just kind of like showed up, but it's it's for a good cause. You know, I think, I think tonight, you know, one, it's going to bring awareness to JJ's situation. But two, it's also going to bring awareness to the first responders that we don't talk enough about. The emotional trauma that happens, well, even when a baby is placed in a dumpster and the then the baby dies, these first responders are forever changed. And I don't think people talk about that enough. And so, so let's just go back.

The Night Before The Crash

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Let's just go back to the night of uh May 26, 2016. Joe, you want to start? Or you want me to start? I mean, this is this is a little bit different for us.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Yeah, I can start. Okay. And I could start the the hours before we went to bed that night.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

So a few hours before, JJ was over at the house and talking about this party he was going to go to. And he had a uh Jeep that he was working on. Uh he was going to take his friend with him, and he had been talking about this campfire graduation party that he was going to go to. We didn't think anything of it. You know, he it's typical for a kid his age. He was 20 years old at the time. And started off like a normal night. And a normal night in our household means back then it meant at any given moment the pager could go off and you could have to get up out of bed and go attend to emergencies out there with the fire department. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

So so just for people that don't know, I was a medic on Woodburn Fire Department. And this specific night, I was on call. So if a if the pager went off, I was heading to this scene. And so that's kind of what makes this story kind of unique, really, is because of being connected to the people that were involved. So okay, so keep going.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Yeah. So yeah, like I said, it was a normal night after you and I bedded down. Uh I can't remember what time your pager went off, uh, sometime around midnight, I'm thinking 11 o'clock, midnight.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Uh it was like 145, 150. Was it was it that it was yeah, it was it was pretty late.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Yep. And of course I didn't think anything of it. Um normal, normal thing. Like I said, pager goes off, you pop out of bed and get ready and go. But the thing about it is, laying there, I could listen to for some reason you left your the voice pager there. I think it was the voice pager. You for some reason you left it on there. You don't usually leave it, you left it on the nightstand. And of course I heard all the traffic. And the only thing I remember hearing, I blocked everything else out, but when I heard your voice say, It's JJ, you need to hurry, I think is what you said. Yeah. I I popped out of bed. What's going on? And then right after I popped out of bed, I started throwing my clothes on, knowing that I'm gonna have to go somewhere. Next thing I know, I noticed I missed a couple of calls from you, and then I finally answered your call, and I said, I heard it on the radio, I think, is what I told you, and I'm on my way. And I don't know if if Larry, I don't know if you tried to call me or somebody else tried to call me too, I think. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

So, okay, so let's go back for just a second because you kind of you kind of jumped ahead just a bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I did.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

But and so that night I was on call. Yeah, we went to bed. JJ was at this

Donuts, Rollover, And A Pinned Friend

SPEAKER_02 4:00

this high school graduation party with Casey, his best friend. Yeah, and they took this Jeep with them. They were, I don't even know why he had the Jeep, to be honest with you, but it was one of his friend's Jeeps that he was looking at the brakes or the something on it, and so he decided to just drive the Jeep instead of his pickup truck to this bonfire. And and so they were at the bonfire and they actually left. They actually came home, JJ and Casey. So Casey was JJ's best friend. And so JJ and Casey actually drove home and Casey forgot his phone. His phone was still at the party. And so at about 1:45 that night, they headed back to the party. And when they picked up the phone to leave again, somebody said, do a donut. And of course, that's exactly what JJ did was JJ did a donut.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Of course, JJ's gonna do a donut.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Of course, JJ's gonna do the donut. And and Casey was sitting on the windowsill of the Jeep. And so when JJ, the driver of the Jeep, did the donut, the Jeep flipped. And with Casey being on the windowsill, Jay Casey became pinned underneath the vehicle. And so the kids at that party, there was about 50 kids, and we only know that now because of the court case. But there was 50 kids at this party that ran over to the Jeep, picked the Jeep up, and put it back on all four tires. Because when we arrived, this vehicle was back on all four tires.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

And you didn't know when you left the house, you didn't know that it was JJ. No, I think. It was just a normal call for you. You found out halfway.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, and and so I'll I'll go back to that here in just a second. But I wanted to kind of set the stage on you know what was actually happening. So JJ did the donut, Jeep flipped, pinned Casey, kids came over, picked up the vehicle, put it back on off four tires. So you know how many kids were there if they can pick up a car, and they put it back on all four tires, and then those kids took off. And that that's the part that really bothered me for a really long time was that there's a kid dying on the ground, and all of these other kids just left him there. And and so then I get the call. So we know this now, we didn't know this at the time, but JJ called 911, and there was another person that called 911 that night. And so when they the pager went off, all I knew was that it was a vehicle rollover party penned. I had no idea who it was, you know, and that was very common for us. I mean, Larry, how many, how many accidents have we been on where Yeah, and you know, you always have that thought that it could be somebody that you know, but when it is somebody that you know, you kind of kind of lose it, to be honest with you. And so I jump in the ambulance. Uh, Garrick jumps in the ambulance with me, he's driving me. I jump in the passenger side and I'm trying to get my head in the game because I when they when they were letting us know that it was a vehicle rollover party pinned, we knew that that was bad, especially when they were in. I mean, they and I believe they told us that it was a that they were doing donuts in a 19-acre field. Yeah. And so I kind of was figuring it out in my head that this was this this was not gonna be a good run at all. And so halfway to the scene, which I never take my phone, this was the crazy part. I always take the pager and I leave my phone at the house. And that night I left the pager and brought the

The Call That Turned Personal

SPEAKER_02 7:30

phone.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

And so about halfway to the scene, my phone starts ringing and it's JJ. And I was like, What is he calling me at two o'clock? And I thought he seen me leave from the house and was like, What's going on? And was just nosy. And so I picked up the phone, and all I could hear was him screaming and him saying, Hurry and help. And the phone then dropped the call. And I was trying to call him back and he was not answering the phone. And then over the pager, they came back and said, just for your information, CPR has has been started or is in process or is in progress or whatever they said. And so at that moment I thought that JJ was the one that was pinned because he was the one screaming and not giving me any information. And now he's not answering his phone. And so literally, I lost it. I lost it. And so I got on the radio and I said to the other ambulance that was en route, it's JJ, you need to hurry up. And I think everybody heard that call come out, which I think made it personal for all of us. And so when I arrived on scene, JJ was doing chest compressions on Casey. And I immediately went to my son, which would be, I think, any parent's reaction. And he had stated he was fine, save Casey. That was his word, save Casey. And so he had literally blood just dripping from him. It was all over him. I didn't realize at the time, I thought it was his blood, but it wasn't. It was actually Casey's blood. And so I started to go to work on Casey. And that's when you guys started to show up. Uh, we had two ambulances on scene. And then you, I remember hearing on the radio traffic that you couldn't figure out how to get back to this field. We were having a hard time finding our way back to the field. And I think you were in 163.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

I believe it was two. 263? No, 162.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

162.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Yeah, I think it was the engine that night.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

And there was a lot of confusion because of where the crash was in the field and how do we access it? Because that highway was always known as a deadly highway.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

And we were familiar with the road, but not the secondary fields around it. Right. So to get back there was very confusing. Approaching from the roadway, only

CPR, Landing Zones, And Time Of Death

SPEAKER_03 10:00

thing you could tell was there was lights in the middle of a field. So how do we get a 60,000-pound fire truck back there and not sink and be able to help?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Right. Now, did you drive through the field?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Uh honestly, I I can't remember. I've got a lot of images in my head from that night, but how we actually got there, I couldn't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Because we drove through the field.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

I I couldn't figure out how to get back to JJ. And I looked at Garrig and I said, Drive me through the field. And we took an ambulance through a 19-acre field.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Which I look back now, and it's by the grace of God that this thing didn't get stuck. Literally get stuck. And then I went running once we got to this fence and I forgot all my bags. I literally just jumped out of the truck and left all the bags in the truck. Um, but how how many minutes after we got there did you get there? Was I still working on Casey or had Samaritan? Because I don't think you, I don't think Samaritan had landed yet.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

No, because we were that's what we were in the process while we were en route. We knew what was happening. It was okay, who who's gonna set up a landing zone? Um, who's gonna assist with patient care? So me and I remember the other gentleman, after we heard you on the radio, you know, yelling that it was JJ, I immediately tried to take control of the scene before I got there and had our communications switch channels in case we were to say anything, you know, private, we didn't want the entire county to hear it. So that was very important to move communications to a different channel.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

But I mean, I feel like the parade of lights getting there, like it was it felt like two minutes apart for us.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, yeah, because we had then at that point, we had I think four people working on Casey, and and then we you guys landed Samaritan in the field. Um, and then Samaritan came and took over care of Casey. And I believe it was 18 minutes, if I remember, which I I don't think I'll ever forget that, but we worked him for 18 minutes and and then we called time of death. And and that's kind of right after we called time of death for Casey, JJ was losing it. I was losing it. I took him to the middle of the field away from everybody else. I look back now and I'm surprised that the police officers even let me take him away from the scene, you know, the way that I did. But everybody knew him. Everybody knew everybody in that, you know, at that accident.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah. I think I think there was some trust amongst the first responders that you know we're we were gonna keep JJ there. He wasn't gonna try to flee. Like he was, I think from that night he owned it right from the he did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

He did from the get-go.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

There was no no questions about you know where JJ was gonna go. It was he was staying to see things through.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Yeah. And and then after we called time of death, you show up.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Yeah, I think I think either you or somebody was talking to me on the phone trying to give me direction on how to get there. And I finally got there, and when I pulled in, one of the owners of the property was leaving and stopped and kind of told me what happened. And then I pulled up in there, and it seemed like every single fire truck in the entire department was there. That probably was. Samaritan was just taking off when I got there. Yeah, it was just taking off. And as I walked up, yeah, everybody was just kind of looking at me as I'm walking by.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

So when you walk when you was walking by before you because when you hadn't had contact with us, when you walked by Casey, did you know that it was Casey or did you think that it was JJ on the ground?

SPEAKER_04 13:34

I didn't know that it was Casey, and I did see a body with a white sheet. I do remember seeing that. I didn't know that it was Casey, but my heart told me that it wasn't JJ. I I I just didn't believe that it was JJ. Yeah, didn't believe it. And then you know, I don't really remember. I think, you know, firefighters let me let me in, and that was another thing. If the w the police were in control, they probably wouldn't have let me back there because it was a crime scene. Well, not a crime scene, but it was a crime scene. Yeah, yeah. And I found you and JJ sitting by the campfire that was going on. You you you had you were talking to him and you had sat down by where they had the campfire. And as I approached, JJ stood up and came up and hugged me. Yeah. And then that's when he told me those words. Those he said, I won't say the name, he said he's dead, and I did it. He he no, he said he's dead, he's dead, and it's my fault. And it's my fault, yeah. It's my fault. And he kept saying that. And uh yeah, all I could do is comfort him at that time, you know. I had to say, hey, we'll get through this, you

Aftermath, Handcuffs, And The Hospital Run

SPEAKER_04 14:40

know. Don't worry about it, we'll get through this. But I don't think he was hearing anything I was saying. He was just wanted somebody to hug, and we hug we stood there and hugged for forever. That seemed like all I all I wanted to do is, you know, make him not hurt, you know, make him feel better.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Well, as a parent, that's what you do.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Yeah, that's all I was trying to do. But I don't want to jump too far ahead, but uh we're still in that moment. Do you want to talk more about that particular moment or about you and JJ? About me and JJ, or that particular because I was gonna go on what happened after that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

This is like an open forum. We can talk about whatever we want.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Yeah. So I don't remember all of the details. I just remember that and I didn't I didn't even think about because like I had been mayor five months.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

I didn't I wasn't even thinking about that, you know. I was just thinking about what happened and how I can take care of my family. And sometime after that, it the discussion was that JJ had to go, you know, he had to go get checked out at the hospital, but he had to ride in a police vehicle handcuffed.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Yeah, they did handcuff him. They they handcuffed him.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Yeah, and I I I thought that was unreasonable, but I know that's protocol.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Well, you know, and we've always been as open and as honest as we possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

It it needed to happen.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

You know, that yeah, it's protocol, but he broke the law. We've never tried to try to make, you know, excuses for him.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Right. We'll probably get into this more, but as a parent, you know, I'm thinking, God, you don't have to put handcuffs on him.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

But I know it was it was necessary and probably appropriate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah. And so I don't know what happened after we left because when JJ got put into the cop car, you and I we left I left the ambulance and you and I took off in your pickup to head straight to the hospital. They were taking JJ to the hospital. Yep. And and he wasn't injured, but they wanted to do a blood draw. And they they also, because Casey died, they said that they wanted to just have a physician look at him. But I don't know what actually happened after we left.

unknown 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Like I'm sure it was I honestly don't even remember. I can remember a lot of the way that scene looked and the like surprising moments of that night. Um, like you we said earlier, you know, this was at a graduation party celebration. And when we got there, it was JJ and Casey. There was nobody else. So I remember, you know, I guess I'll I'll come back a little bit on my story, but you know, at home, Pedro went off. I remember Mariah immediately telling me, hey, this is that party that Macy wanted to go to. So right away And Macy is your daughter. Yeah, I'm sorry. My daughter, one of JJ's friends. So I'm I'm thinking, oh gosh, you know, did Macy sneak out of the house and go to the party? So I've got that on my mind. And then getting in the fire truck on the way out there, hearing you screaming on the radio, it was JJ. I can remember two different feelings. One was, is it JJ that's hurt, or is JJ just there? So did my daughter sneak out of the house? Like all these things are just going through your head, and you don't know until you get there. So year years, I think I've been in therapy for four years and finally just work through this entire incident. Um, after four years of trying, I can see my career, my time as a first responder. I can pin it back to 2016. Yeah. That that was when I knew I had to leave. Took me 10 years, but my attitude towards runs changed. My attitude towards the people changed because we were traumatized and we were never given that opportunity to get help. It was, yeah, this is somebody in your community. This happened to your friends. Suck it up, buttercup. You know, have a beer, smoke a cigarette, get over it.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Like which is which is interesting that we didn't have a debriefing.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

That's always something that I've worried about, but keep going. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah, I think it was just the mentality in the fire service. You know, debriefings were kind of for sissies. Yeah. It was, yeah, we're not going to do anything. We're we're gonna talk about what we did on the scene, but you're not gonna get into your feelings. And I think that was just the perception everybody had

When First Responders Carry PTSD

SPEAKER_03 19:00

of doing a debriefing, and I was extremely guilty of that. So I think even if we would have had a debriefing, it wouldn't have done anything because the only thing we would were doing was talking about what we did, what we seen. The the outcome was never gonna be any different than what it was that night. So that's uh to me, like, and then remaining friends with you guys, seeing JJ here daily, that was a struggle every time I parked my vehicle to walk in this building, knowing I was gonna have to relive that trauma every single time. And that was when I realized I was treating my family different, I was treating friends different, I was treating co-workers different, and yeah, I was already on medication, but knowing I had to do something to get help, and that help was never pushed from the fire department, it was either I do this or I'm probably gonna lose my wife. So that that was hard.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

So do you think all of the trauma, because you and I have been on a lot of runs together, we have seen legs and arms and burned bodies, and do you think that everything that we've seen up until that moment, we just kind of suppressed, and that was the moment that took us over the edge? Like that that was as as I always say, the call that changed it all, you know?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, I know that sounds cliche, but I've used that. I can't tell you how many hundreds, maybe even thousands of bodies deceased that I had touched, and none of them ever affected me. There was a couple here and there, like if it was a a a small child, but after JJ's call, every trauma was the worst thing I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Elevated.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Yeah. And there was really it was a light switch. You know, and looking back, the way I acted at the scenes, you know, the bystanders, you know, if there's something that comes from this and you're a bystander driving by a crash, don't ask the first responder what's happened. Because they probably just witnessed one of the worst tragic events of their life, and they're trying to process it. And then you pull up and you know, hey, what happened? Or you've got a cell phone out trying to video, but what you're not thinking about is that video you're taking changed somebody's life. And you're just taking it to put it on social media. I seen a bad crash. You know, it's yeah, it's just it's very difficult. And why I think uh this particular scene bothered me was the fact that it involved people we knew. You know, we had been on calls before of people you know, but nobody that you were really close to. Um, so that was the most difficult part. Was I I just told Joe this probably a month ago, but I could literally paint a picture of him and JJ hugging to the side of that scene. I can't remember what my hands were doing. I can't remember literally anything below my chest, but I can remember that scene. So every time I see Joe. You know, now I see a smile, but it's taken me 10 years to get past every time I see Joe's silhouette of him hugging JJ or him when JJ collapsed to the ground putting his hand on him, you know, just trying to keep him comforted. You know, and then the the aspect between, you know, me and you was I know, you know, I was ready to change. I was ready to take that journey of my own mental health, mental peace, and not knowing what other responders that night have gone through, or if they've tried to get help, or if their lives have been changed and they're just going day to day. Because it's a lot like alcoholism. Unless you're ready to get help, nobody's gonna help you. And me knowing now how I can feel that I can feel pain, I can feel happiness, and those things are okay. I just wish everyone in the first responder in the world would know if you get the right help, you can have those feelings. I'm covered, you know. I think before this crash, I had two tattoos. After this crash, I covered both arms, not my legs. And my tattoo guy always asked me, like, how do you fall asleep getting tattooed? I've got two guys. And I'm like, I didn't understand it, but I would always go after therapy. And when I told my therapist every time I left, I go and get a tattoo, she said it was because I was looking to feel something, and that pain from a tattoo was allowing me to feel, and just having that feeling put me to rest that I could sleep. So I literally had to go through a physical trauma to be able to have comfort. And that's I'm still gonna get tattoos now. I enjoy them, but I enjoy them for a different reason.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah, I I can see where that would help people, you know. And as the years have gone by, I think we've learned more and more from I mean, there was 50 first responders on that scene between police, fire, and medics. And through the years, we've heard that it this this one call changed a lot of people's lives, not just JJ and Casey's, that this is one that has affected them for a very long time. And I I completely hear what you're saying because after this accident, I took a six-month leave of absence from TRA and from Woodburn fire, and I couldn't go back. I I tried to go back. I think I went back for what, six months, and I couldn't do it. I just could not do it. It was like every time the pager was going off, I would want to know where JJ was or where Alexis was or where Ali. It was like I I was losing my mind with that pager. And so I I knew for my sake I needed to let it go, but there's a lot about this night that I have not even, I haven't even touched it yet, you know. And I think for me, it was because I had to save my family. I had to fight for JJ. I had to fight for, I mean, we you and I fought more around that time than we have in the last 30 years. You know, it it was a bad time for us because we took it out on each other. And I wanted to talk about it all the time. It was like the more I talked about it, the more I felt better, the more I felt like I was processing something. And the more I talked, the more you became angry because you didn't want to hear anymore. You were like, I'm done. Don't say anything else. Why do you always bring it up? It's I think the exact word you said was every gathering.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

Every gathering, when we talk to anybody, relatives, friends, that subject always came up and it dominated the conversation. I understand it, but I was so ready to have you know get back to normalcy. And we kept talking about it for gosh, it was a good year.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Longer than that.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

Every I mean every day for a good year. And then after that, it was still talked about a lot, which I understand, you know, hey, we're still together, aren't we? We're still together, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Almost 30 years later. Well, and you know, for JJ, you know, most people don't realize that you're not his biological father. You're you're a stepdad.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

And and so for you to be this involved just speaks volumes about who you are as a as a stepdad. I mean, you dropped everything to take care of JJ, you know, and and that just shows

Family Fallout, Prison Visits, And Regret

SPEAKER_02 26:30

your character. It really does.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

You know, the first time we saw him when he first went away to County?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

When he was in jail?

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Yeah, county. Remember, I remember the first time I saw him there. It had been a week, I think. We couldn't see him for a week. And we got there, and I I was so happy to see him. You know, and and you and I I smiled when I saw him, and he smiled back at us, you know. And just I remember those kind of moments, you know, and the times we went to see him when he was away.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Now he's in prison.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Yeah. Which is a whole whole another thing. You know, it is his punishment was probably appropriate, but to go through to go through going to jail and losing your best friend and knowing it was because of your accident that you lost your best friend, you know. I can't imagine what he was going through, but it was it was nice that we could see him steadily, steadily through the time that he was he was away.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Well, we never we never missed a weekend.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

No.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Every time the weekend came around, we were driving to prison. I mean, we became pretty familiar with the corrections officers. Yeah, you know, and um because it just became part of our lives because that's what you do with your kids. You know, there's no roadmap with parenting at all. And we really had some bumps and some some bruises along the way with JJ. Um, but at the end of the day, I think as parents, we went above and beyond for him.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

We did.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And and I'm proud that we did because I think mentally he's better because of it. You know, I I can't imagine an accident like this happening and a parent shutting the door and not going to, you know, like just saying, Well, you screwed up. I'm not, you know, that's it. I'm not, I I could not do that with my child. You know, the good thing about us is we're as raw and as real as you're gonna get. And we never made excuses for JJ. We tried to process it in the beginning on figuring out how this happened because JJ's blood alcohol was 0.085. So yes, he was legally drunk, but he wasn't oblivated. And so we were like, what actually happened? And you know, I and plus as parents that, you know, just you know had the worst day of their life, we had to process that as well. You know, and so I think for you and I, I think that's the one thing that we did right with him, is we stood beside him, but never made excuses for him, let him pay his dues, spend his time in prison, and then walk with him as he got out. And I think that's made him a better man today because of it. You know, I mean, he's 30 years old, he's he's got a good heart, you know, he's got a good head on his shoulders, solid father, solid father, yes. And mentally, I don't know how he does it. I just don't. But he does, you know, somehow he makes it work. And I know that he misses Casey because on Casey's anniversary date of his death, every year, you know, we go through some stuff. And and then on his birthday, you know, that's another day that we know when JJ's going through it.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

And we know he's going through it, so we just kind of let him, you know, doing okay, JJ? Yeah, I'm doing fine.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

One of the things that we didn't realize at the time either was we weren't thinking about it, was our youngest daughter. She was a senior that year, and she graduated that year, and we we kind of, you know, we didn't celebrate her senior year as much as we should have because that was so I feel like we sort of stripped her of that. But I've talked to her several times about that, and she said, she said, I don't think anything of it, but I know it it probably hurt at the time.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah, yeah. I I well looking back on it now, she dropped 50 pounds thing.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Yeah, she did.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

She lost a lot of weight, she lost a lot of weight. She was she was struggling, and we didn't see it because we were so focused on JJ. Yep. And that's the that's one thing I really regret is not really focusing on Alexis more. But it's like, how how do you know when you're you know, it's like well, that's what I kind of wanted to ask.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Like, so Joe, you were you were kind of done with Monica talking about this crash over and over and over. Yeah. What was your drive that you wanted to talk about it?

SPEAKER_02 31:04

I was processing it. I felt the more I talked about it, the better I felt. And he was just tired of me telling him the same thing over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

You know, I I I think, am I saying that right? You were just you were just tired of reliving it.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Yeah, but you know, I hate to say it this way, but I put up with it, you know, because I knew it was important to you.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

But there were times when I expressed my feelings about it, but you know, we got through it.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

That's kind of like I know you and I haven't really talked about this night very much, you know, spot here, spot there, but nothing, nothing nowhere near like this. So did you ever reach out and seek help and actually follow through with it, or did you block that out like you needed to be tough?

SPEAKER_02 31:52

So, Tra when I went on a six-month leave of absence, they put me immediately in counseling and they paid for it. I was like super thankful that they did, and it helped, but I I never really truly I think processed this night emotionally. I I just I just don't. I think I was fighting so hard for JJ's life and for JJ to get healthy mentally that I literally put myself on the back burner. I don't think JJ truly knows how much we really did for him emotionally, physically. I I don't think he does because we at the end of the day, we sacrificed ourselves for our kids. So to answer your question, no, I haven't processed that night. That's something that we've actually been talking about now for probably six months.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

One of the things that real uh that really irks me is when people say that he got off easy because he's our son. Yeah. That always upset me because we know darn well we didn't have any influence in his punishment.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

And I was gonna say this isn't 1980

Therapy, Triggers, And Learning To Feel

SPEAKER_03 33:00

anymore when the good old boy system works. I mean, exactly. Yeah, we're in a day of dash cam, body cam, everything's recorded, but you nobody's getting off easy anymore. It doesn't matter who you are. I I don't think any first responder would even get off. I mean, cops are getting arrested daily for DUIs when 20, 30 years ago, hey man, I'm gonna take you home. That those times are done. Yeah. But Monica, I think like me realizing what I was doing to my family and getting that help. I never understood why this one run was getting to me. And I just actually this year, like within the last few months, same therapist, go to once, twice a month. It was it was like a light bulb moment went off in my head when I was able to pin why did this run affect me? It wasn't the trauma on the scene, it was Mariah, and I've talked to her about this, but her starting that with, hey, this is that party Macy wanted to go to, that created a unnormal circumstance in my head when I was leaving for a run. And then followed by you screaming on the radio, it was JJ. That was strike number two. Strike number three for me was you know the the silhouette I've got forever etched in my brain of Joe and JJ. I can remember a couple times looking at you, but I was used to that. I was used to seeing you next to me working on the same scene. I wasn't used to seeing Joe. I wasn't used to seeing JJ. I wasn't used to hearing your your scream on the radio. I wasn't used to my wife telling me, hey, this is so and so. So once I started processing my own mental thoughts going through each one of those steps, then I was able to understand and come to peace with why was this so traumatizing? Why did this change my life forever? You know, it it's not a a five-year, a 10-year. I remember asking my therapist, when do I graduate? For the first two years of therapy, when am I done? Like I thought I was just gonna get better. It was about year four when she said, Hey, you haven't asked me that in quite some time. And I smiled. And she said, What'd you learn? And I said, I'm never gonna be better, but I'm gonna be better today than I was yesterday. And that gave me peace, knowing, yeah, I'm gonna go through therapy, but you know what? As long as I keep moving forward, I'm doing exactly what I should be doing. So I think you you know, I I was picturing Joe like when you know he was frustrated hearing this story over and over. Like you've got to find that moment for you. Oh, I do, I know of you know, talking about it helps, yes. But realistically, talking about it is just another debrief. You're just saying what your body did, what you went through, but not what you were mentally thinking, processing at those exact moments, and working through those, I mean, you're already a happy positive person. I think the you know the end of the world is your your pathway. Like you're you're unstoppable. You just gotta get through there.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

No, uh you're you're not telling me anything. I haven't fought in the last six months. You know, when JJ, because JJ doesn't work here anymore, and I think I really started to become affected when he left because he was my safeguard. You know, like I could go back there and talk about this night to JJ, and he he got it, he understood it, you know. And we would, you know, we would go back and forth of, you know, talking about, you know, I don't, I don't even know. Like, hey, have you talked to Casey's family lately? And now I don't have that. And I think that is the moment that I started losing my shit. Like the little things affect me so big now. Like not putting cream in my coffee. If he brings me a cup of coffee and he doesn't have cream in my coffee, I'm losing my shit. Like it's it's I'm at a point now where, and we've this is nothing you haven't heard in the last six months, that I have to do something. And you know, I'm a vet. And so the VA, I actually start counseling on this in August, August 5th. So I'm taking that step, which I took should have taken 10 years ago, to be honest with you. But I was so focused on JJ that I forgot about myself. So yeah, and I told myself I wasn't gonna cry tonight, Larry.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

I've done everything I could. I'm sitting here pinching my leg just to keep the tears in my eyes. But you know, one of the the best things I learned through uh my journey, I call it my journey because it's not over and it's not gonna end, is the way we talk to our family and our friends outside of the first responder, outside of the military. You know, Joe not putting the Kramer in your coffee. That's that's an inch big. That's just Joe. You know, uh he forgot.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

But why is it such a big deal to you? Because you're used to grab me the defibulator, get me the airway bag, you're getting exactly what you want. And when we take that home and we have that same expectation for our families, we're gonna fail our family. We have to there has to be that that cutoff, that processing moment of you know, we're not in a life or death situation when the coffee the creamer doesn't have or the coffee is not in the creamer. So how do we how do we communicate that to our loved ones? And I you know, one of the best things that happened to me was Mariah flat telling me, you are not gonna talk to me like I'm one of the guys at the fire department. And I never understood what she ever meant. It took me years of counseling, self-reflecting that now when Mariah does something that I think it's wrong, honey, you're you're a trophy. I call her a trophy all the time because she's pretty. She's just not gonna do everything to my expectation. And it's not an insult, it's just I can't talk to her like I would talk to you. Hey, get the get the suction, get this. You expect that from me. Our families don't expect that reaction when something's not perfect. So it's part of your journey. You know, I hope I hope the the VA helps get you there. I've got, you know, I would much rather see you go to someone private, someone that can experience and help you get through the the PTSD, because that's exactly what it is. You know, the the flashbacks. Every time I walk in here and I see a picture of JJ, it's a flashback to that night of that picture I see. And it's not a flashback like you see in the movies where it's fireworks and you know bombs going off. It's a simple, small things. The field that we drove through, the the silhouette of Joe and JJ, the ambulance. I can still picture the eight-foot-long table out there. And I can remember when the helicopter, yep, helicopter landed and the solo cups went flying, and the lack of people that were there. Like those are things that are just always there. But I hope the VA has the special resources for what this type of therapy is going to take. I know I've done the EMDR, I've done yoga, I've done the self-reflection, the read books, listen to documentaries. Um, I used to just remember, I don't even think I've ever told anybody this, other than my therapist, I would play the saddest songs in the world on the radio because I was trying to get a tear to come out, and I could never do it. No matter how s sad it was, no matter what the story was, there was no tears. And the only thing I was looking for was that feeling. So the right therapist has got to be the best choice, and not just going to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Yeah. So on that note, now that we're all crying, I'm not.

SPEAKER_04 41:00

Well, I appreciate what you've shared, Larry, because uh, you know, I never really thought deeply about you know, the things that you were going through all these years, you know. So it doesn't surprise me that you were going through them, but I never really thought about it. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Yeah.

unknown 41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yeah, it

Building Better Debriefs And Closing

SPEAKER_03 41:20

it's taken me a long time. Yeah. I just shared the same similar story, not in as much detail at work about mental health month. And that's something now I'm very passionate about. I actually joined the the debriefing team for Indiana for the local fire departments, police departments. After leaving the fire department, I realized the value and what that team brought, that I never gave it the opportunity. So that's kind of my goal is you know, what I said, it's like alcoholism. Until you realize there's a problem, you're gonna deny it. And if I can just help one person here, one person there, understand that there's nothing wrong with this. Like you can live a fully functioning life. But yeah, I I now I'm to a point where I can talk about it. And you know, this is probably the first time I've talked about it and didn't tear up. But I think talking about it with you guys, you know, getting that part out, you know, letting everybody know what the first responders go through, and not every first responder goes through it. You know, you talked about how many different things we've seen, and it's I think they now call it cumulative trauma. So it's just when traumas just keep piling up and it's just gonna take one more to throw it over the edge. And I don't want to see any of us go over that edge.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah, that would be devastating. Well, thank you for coming on. Yeah. Appreciate you both.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Thanks for opening up the the conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

We know it's not easy, but I'm sure there's some kind of forgot about this stuff over here, but yeah, don't know if that's somebody trying to get in or it is.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

So I've been seeing them pop up on on TikTok as multiple people trying to get into the live. And again, I never let anybody into the live, but we gotta do any questions and so let me let me log off of the the the podcast part, and then we'll go right on into questions from well, there you have it. JJ Story. Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Box. Like I said, this was not gonna be the usual, but hopefully we all learned a little thing tonight. So God bless you guys, and thank you guys so much for supporting us. God bless you.